Tsunami may have inspired Atlantis myth

[sylla]

A timely piece from New Scientist summarizes 7 sunken cities, but does not include Helike:

Offending post deleted

[Aurelia]

I vote for Antarctica.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2009 by Aurelia

[sylla]

I vote for Neverland too.

[Callaecus]

True, however the point is try to find out which historical event (assuming there was one) influenced Plato in his description of the destruction of Atlantis. We do not have evidence that there were in those days folktales about Tera's eruption; on the other side, there was plenty of knowledge about Tera's destruction. So, based on available evidence,I would say that it was Helike's destruction that influenced Plato's description.

 

Callaecus - this is interesting. I'd not heard of this prior to your post.

 

How big (in territory and population) was Helike?

 

J

I don't know.

I suggest you to consult the webpage about the ongoing research project :

 

http://www.helike.org/

 

Also, even though oral literature survives for a long time, it is also dependent on the persistence throughout time of the same culture. Now, it would be very hard for the tale about Tera's destruction to survive for 1200 years until Plato, taking in consideration that many changes happened during that time: the end of Minoans, the ascent of Miceneans, their destruction by the Dorians, the Greek Dark Age, the formation of Classic city-states...

[sylla]

Callaecus - this is interesting. I'd not heard of this prior to your post.

How big (in territory and population) was Helike?

I don't know.

I suggest you to consult the webpage about the ongoing research project :

 

http://www.helike.org/

Offending post deleted

[Callaecus]

Sylla

 

Thank you for the quote you added.

 

I noticed there a curious detail:

 

During their term of office great earthquakes occurred in the Peloponnese accompanied by tidal waves which engulfed the open country and cities in a manner past belief; for never in the earlier periods had such disasters befallen Greek cities, nor had entire cities along with their inhabitants disappeared as a result of some divine force wreaking destruction and ruin upon mankind.

 

What this means is that there was no memory of Tera's eruption by then, strongly suggesting that Plato's inspiration for Atlantis destruction was Helike and not Tera.

[caldrail]

Plato's inspiration was the stories told to him by Solon, who in turn had learned the tale from Egyptian priests, suggesting a very old tradition but no precise origin.

 

The Mediterranean is in any case prone to disasters. The northward movement of the African plate has resulted in the Straits of Gibraltar (Pillars of Hercules, sorry...) closing at least once and as many as ten times, which would have caused the sea to evaporate (it really does - only the connection with the Atlantic keeps the basin flooded) and flood again when the dam was breached. The coastline is flexing under pressure thus archaeological remains show sign of inundation at high levels and some areas are still 'pushed down', like Alexandria. Of course, all this friction causes volcano's and we all know about those

[sylla]

I noticed there a curious detail:

 

During their term of office great earthquakes occurred in the Peloponnese accompanied by tidal waves which engulfed the open country and cities in a manner past belief; for never in the earlier periods had such disasters befallen Greek cities, nor had entire cities along with their inhabitants disappeared as a result of some divine force wreaking destruction and ruin upon mankind.

 

What this means is that there was no memory of Tera's eruption by then, strongly suggesting that Plato's inspiration for Atlantis destruction was Helike and not Tera.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[Callaecus]

Plato's inspiration was the stories told to him by Solon, who in turn had learned the tale from Egyptian priests, suggesting a very old tradition but no precise origin.

True, but I don't think one should take that information too seriously. After all, there was not an Egyptian culture 9000 years before. I think Plato used the Egyptians mainly for two reasons:

 

- because Egypt was already by then an old culture (though not old enough to temporally coincide with Plato's history), being able therefore to witness the events described by Plato;

 

- because Egypt would be sort of a neutral observer in the description of the conflict between Atlantis and Old Athens.

 

This conflict is the important matter of the story: Atlantis is just the Athens of the days of Plato - an imperial maritime power full of hubris; whereas the Old Athens is full of virtues, being the model of society that Plato wanted his fellow Athenians to follow. The story of Atlantis is, above all, a political allegory.

[JGolomb]

More ancient Mediterranean destruction here:

 

Libya: Ancient Roman city found off coast

[Callaecus]

Plato's inspiration was the stories told to him by Solon, who in turn had learned the tale from Egyptian priests, suggesting a very old tradition but no precise origin.

I'd like to add one more observation about the possibility that the Egyptian priests guard an old tradition, suggesting, as such, that it was Tera's eruption that inspired Atlantis: everything about the Atlantis story (it size, location, war with an Old Athens) is false, so why would the info about its destruction be true? Wouldn't it be better to assume that Plato was inspired by Helike's destruction, which is similar to Atlantis, and took place during his lifetime?

 

 

More ancient Mediterranean destruction here:

 

Libya: Ancient Roman city found off coast

Thanks for the link.

[Callaecus]

Let's compare Plato description about the destruction of Atlantis with what we know about the disctruction of Tera and Helike to see which one fits better:

 

But afterward there occurred violent earthquakes and floods, and in a single day and night of rain all your warlike men in a body sunk into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared, and was sunk beneath the sea.

 

And that is the reason why the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is such a quantity of shallow mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

 

Helike was destroyed solely by earthquakes and floodings, whereas in Tera's case there was also a vulcanic eruption which Plato does not mention.

 

Helike disappeared, whereas Tera was only half destroyed.

 

The navigation in Helike after its destruction was not possible, whereas in Tera it was possible.

 

So, all in all, Helike fits perfectly well Atlantis destruction while Tera does not.