Tsunami may have inspired Atlantis myth

[Ursus]

The volcanic explosion that obliterated much of the island that might have inspired the legend of Atlantis apparently triggered a tsunami that traveled hundreds of miles to reach as far as present-day Israel, scientists now suggest.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/200910...egendofatlantis

[Northern Neil]

I have often though that this event may also be behind the story of the seven plagues of Egypt, mentioned in 'Exodus' in the Bible.

[Ursus]

I have often though that this event may also be behind the story of the seven plagues of Egypt, mentioned in 'Exodus' in the Bible.

 

An interesting thought! 1630 - 1550 BCE ... is that about the time that Moses and Exodus was supposed to have taken place?

[Klingan]

I have often though that this event may also be behind the story of the seven plagues of Egypt, mentioned in 'Exodus' in the Bible.

 

An interesting thought! 1630 - 1550 BCE ... is that about the time that Moses and Exodus was supposed to have taken place?

 

First of all, uhm, please common, it cannot be news that people want to identify Santorino with Atlantis (which is nothing but ridiculous)

 

Anyway about the Exodus, that is 400 years later I'm affraid. The exodus is dated (by the mention of the founding of two cities, Pitom and Ramses) to the reign of Ramses II (13th century Bc) while the Santorini event has been dated to 1628 Bc by modern methods.

[sylla]

I must agree with K here; sensationalism strikes hard again.

It seems all the original news was the finding of some sediment layers in the coast of Israel compatible with a tsunami at the time of Santorini's explosion.

[JGolomb]

I have often though that this event may also be behind the story of the seven plagues of Egypt, mentioned in 'Exodus' in the Bible.

 

An interesting thought! 1630 - 1550 BCE ... is that about the time that Moses and Exodus was supposed to have taken place?

 

First of all, uhm, please common, it cannot be news that people want to identify Santorino with Atlantis (which is nothing but ridiculous)

 

Anyway about the Exodus, that is 400 years later I'm affraid. The exodus is dated (by the mention of the founding of two cities, Pitom and Ramses) to the reign of Ramses II (13th century Bc) while the Santorini event has been dated to 1628 Bc by modern methods.

Nice thread!

 

This theory is fairly common...a number of books and tv specials tout the Thera/Santorini volcano with Atlantis and Exodus. There exists circumstantial evidence, but the timescale is off enough that the Exodus portion of the theory is pretty much squashed. And since Plato's references to Atlantis are extremely hard to date (and certainly validate) one could kind of make Atlantis fit into any convenient timeframe.

 

It looks like the latest news is tied to the accidental discovery of evidence that validates a huge tsunami within the right timeframe that potentially resulted from a huge volcano. I've also seen stories in recent years reporting the discovery of layers of ash in the Arctic (or maybe it was Greenland) that suggest the same timeframe as the Thera explosion.

 

Here's one book on the topic: Unearthing Atlantis

 

National Geographic Channel ran a special on the Thera/Santorini Super Volcano that's been tied to Atlantis and Exodus. It follows Bob Ballard, who discovered Titanic, exploring the area.

[sylla]

It looks like the latest news is tied to the accidental discovery of evidence that validates a huge tsunami within the right timeframe that potentially resulted from a huge volcano. I've also seen stories in recent years reporting the discovery of layers of ash in the Arctic (or maybe it was Greenland) that suggest the same timeframe as the Thera explosion.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[caldrail]

I have often though that this event may also be behind the story of the seven plagues of Egypt, mentioned in 'Exodus' in the Bible.

 

An interesting thought! 1630 - 1550 BCE ... is that about the time that Moses and Exodus was supposed to have taken place?

 

First of all, uhm, please common, it cannot be news that people want to identify Santorino with Atlantis (which is nothing but ridiculous)

 

The Santorini idea isn't ridiculous. We are of course relying on Plato's description. He wrote the tale about then island continent beyond the Pillars of Hercules, larger than Lybia, whose dispute with Poseidon could only end in tears. As far as we now, he got the original story from Solon, who in turn was told that by the pagan priests of Egypt.

 

Here's the thing. If I tell you there was a big city in England that flooded disastrously, wouldn't you be a bit suspicious if it wasn't on the map? People listening to Plato's story knew the Mediterranean and any mention of a huge continent would have resulted in scorn. Naturally, he described in in an unknown region, in this case beyond the Pillars of Hercules. Therefore the description by Plato is at least partially fictional, and undoubtedly exaggerated enormously.

 

There is a wall painting somewhere of a volcanic cone with a city built on it (I've only seen a photo once and I haven't a clue where it is). Santorini is of course an active volcanic site. Such places build cones (Krakatoa is another one and is currently rebuilding it's central mountain out of the sea - stand by for further explosions) that do explode occaisionally. The problem is that such geographic features often coincide with earthquake zones and if an underwater volcano suffers an earthquake, there is a risk of seawater getting into the cracks, which results in a very big bang as the superheated steam rapidly increases pressure.

 

This sort of thing is what happened at Santorini. The volcano suffered (or triggered?) an earthquake, water got in, expanded rapidly as steam, and KABOOOM!. The resulting crater and empty space then filled with seawater immediately after. The momentum of that causes a 'depression wave', a tsunami, that spreads out as water at a higher level than the surrounding sea, an event which inundated the Minoan Empire and completely destroyed their naval infrastructure (and their economy) overnight.

 

Try it. Fill a bath with water, and place your hand on the surface. Wait for the water to calm. Then depress your hand qickly to simulate a sudden empty space. The water will quickly rush in to cover your hand. Notice though that a noticeable ripple spreads out. If you look closely, that's a mini-tsunami.

 

There would have been verbal tales of this event passed down. Not a slow flood like Noahs tale, but a catastrophic act of the gods, a violent demonstration of natural forces. So what if the Minoans had built a city on a volcanic cone in the middle of Santorini? This isn't so stupid as it sounds. It would have made an excellent sheltered harbour and was partially consistent with Plato's description (if you excuse the greek inspired exaggeration). The cone may not have been obviously active to those living there. We humans only live for three score years and ten on average and our memories are selectively short. However, an event escalated and the cone exploded. Any city there would have been turned to dust and rubble right there and then, spread over the area as debris.

 

A speculative approach, and one about a city that might not have been known by the name Atlantis, but if existent one that would have easily spawned the legend. What is certain is that Atlantis is a wild goose chase. I've said this many times, but it's a story. Sure, there might be some historical precedent for it, but Plato wrote a story about the folly of human pride which has been taken a bit too seriously by readers ever since. The same thing is occuring right now with Dan Browns 'Da Vinci Code', where people are utterly convinced the rationale behind the story is genuine, especially since it can be shown that the Holy Grail never existed in the first place, but was a literary invention of a medieval novelist.

 

It may be then that Atlantis is entirely fictional. So be it. But those priests of Egypt knew a civilisation in the Mediterranean had perished before them. Even if a city wasn't actually on that volcanic cone when it blew, a large prosperous empire collapsed when the resulting tsunami washed it away.

Edited October 13, 2009 by caldrail

[Northern Neil]

Anyway about the Exodus, that is 400 years later I'm affraid. The exodus is dated (by the mention of the founding of two cities, Pitom and Ramses) to the reign of Ramses II (13th century Bc) while the Santorini event has been dated to 1628 Bc by modern methods.

Good point, but when was Exodus written? Was it beyond the scruples of the author to move a natural disaster from the previous millenium forward 400 years to embellish a story when writing about it many centuries after?

[sylla]

Anyway about the Exodus, that is 400 years later I'm affraid. The exodus is dated (by the mention of the founding of two cities, Pitom and Ramses) to the reign of Ramses II (13th century Bc) while the Santorini event has been dated to 1628 Bc by modern methods.

Good point, but when was Exodus written? Was it beyond the scruples of the author to move a natural disaster from the previous millenium forward 400 years to embellish a story when writing about it many centuries after?

Offending post deleted

[Callaecus]

I used to think that the events described in the Atlantis myth (which is not history but, instead, a political alegory) may have been vaguely inspired by Tera's eruption. Yet, the fact is that the vulcanic eruption took place more tham a 1000 years before Plato and it is hard to believe that the memory of such event could have survived for so long. More likely, I think Plato based the destruction of Atlantis in a similar event that took place during his lifetime in the city of Helike, which was destroyed in a way similar to Atlantis.

More here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helike

 

and here

 

 

http://www.helike.org/

[caldrail]

I wouldn't dismiss the endurance of folklore entirely. For example, our Good King Arthur. Modern versions of the story might be hopelessly wide of the dark age reality, but even in our own contemporary medievalised fantasies there are still elements of Iron Age mythos and heroic fiction enshrined within it.

[Callaecus]

I wouldn't dismiss the endurance of folklore entirely. For example, our Good King Arthur. Modern versions of the story might be hopelessly wide of the dark age reality, but even in our own contemporary medievalised fantasies there are still elements of Iron Age mythos and heroic fiction enshrined within it.

True, however the point is try to find out which historical event (assuming there was one) influenced Plato in his description of the destruction of Atlantis. We do not have evidence that there were in those days folktales about Tera's eruption; on the other side, there was plenty of knowledge about Helike's destruction. So, based on available evidence,I would say that it was Helike's destruction that influenced Plato's description.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Callaecus

[JGolomb]

True, however the point is try to find out which historical event (assuming there was one) influenced Plato in his description of the destruction of Atlantis. We do not have evidence that there were in those days folktales about Tera's eruption; on the other side, there was plenty of knowledge about Tera's destruction. So, based on available evidence,I would say that it was Helike's destruction that influenced Plato's description.

 

Callaecus - this is interesting. I'd not heard of this prior to your post.

 

How big (in territory and population) was Helike?

 

J

[JGolomb]

All,

 

A timely piece from New Scientist summarizes 7 sunken cities, but does not include Helike:

Drowned cities: Myths and secrets of the deep

The idea that great cities, rich in forgotten knowledge and treasure, lie hidden beneath the sea holds immense appeal. Scarcely a year goes by without someone claiming to have found Atlantis. But what's really out there under the waves?

 

Jo Marchant looks at some of the sunken towns and cities discovered worldwide, and separates the facts from the myths.

Here's the summary on Atlantis:

Everyone has heard of the lost city of Atlantis. The myth began with the Greek philosopher Plato. In 360 BC, he wrote a book whose characters describe Atlantis as an island bigger than "Libya" and "Asia" together, which existed 9000 years earlier "in front of the Pillars of Hercules" that flank the entrance to the Mediterranean Sea.

 

The Atlanteans were a great naval power but became greedy and morally bankrupt, according to Plato's story. After they led a failed attack on Athens, a natural disaster sank the island in a day and a night, and the spot became a mud shoal, making it impassable and unsearchable. There are many theories for locations that might have inspired Plato. For instance, German physicist Rainer Kuhne thinks it was a region of the southern Spanish coast, destroyed in a flood between 800 and 500 BC. Satellite photos show two rectangular structures in the mud, which Kuhne thinks could be the remains of temples described by Plato.

 

Swedish geographer Ulf Erlingsson says only Ireland matches Plato's description. Others think Atlantis is Spartel Island, a mud shoal in the Strait of Gibraltar that sank into the sea 11,500 years ago.

 

Classical scholars, however, point out that few took Plato's account literally before modern times. "The idea was that we should use the story to examine our ideas of government and power. We have missed the point if instead of thinking about these issues we go off exploring the seabed," philosopher Julia Annas writes in Plato: A Very Short Introduction.