Environmentalism in Ancient Rome

[JGolomb]

I've read recently in a couple of books on Ancient Rome that the thirst for bigger and more awe inspiring Games led to a massive kill-off of animals throughout the Empire and its' environs. I've read of the need to hunt further and further from Rome to find animals that were once available more locally. And I've read of animals that were killed off completely.

 

I'm reading Allessando Barbero's "The Day of the Barbarians" about the Battle at Adrianople in 378. 9 years before this momentous battle, the Emperor of the eastern Empire, Valens, signs a treaty with the Goths. A Greek rhetorician Themistius gives a speech in praise of the peace.

 

According to Barbero, Themistius says (in a combination of direct quotation and paraphrase), "We worry so much about preserving animal species, we're worried that elephants may disappear from Libya, lions from Thessaly, and hippopotamuses, from the Nile; therefore we should rejoice that a race of men, yes, barbarians, as some will say, but men, has been saved from extermination."

 

The comparison between animals and Goths is interesting, but not the topic I'm raising at the moment.

 

Clearly Themistius is referencing a common and well known concern for the preservation of animals. I'm curious is anyone else has come across similar concerns in literature? Are there any specific statistics around the amount of animals that must've been killed in Games to raise concerns over their continued existence?

[JGolomb]

I've read recently in a couple of books on Ancient Rome that the thirst for bigger and more awe inspiring Games led to a massive kill-off of animals throughout the Empire and its' environs. I've read of the need to hunt further and further from Rome to find animals that were once available more locally. And I've read of animals that were killed off completely.

 

I'm reading Allessando Barbero's "The Day of the Barbarians" about the Battle at Adrianople in 378. 9 years before this momentous battle, the Emperor of the eastern Empire, Valens, signs a treaty with the Goths. A Greek rhetorician Themistius gives a speech in praise of the peace.

 

According to Barbero, Themistius says (in a combination of direct quotation and paraphrase), "We worry so much about preserving animal species, we're worried that elephants may disappear from Libya, lions from Thessaly, and hippopotamuses, from the Nile; therefore we should rejoice that a race of men, yes, barbarians, as some will say, but men, has been saved from extermination."

 

The comparison between animals and Goths is interesting, but not the topic I'm raising at the moment.

 

Clearly Themistius is referencing a common and well known concern for the preservation of animals. I'm curious is anyone else has come across similar concerns in literature? Are there any specific statistics around the amount of animals that must've been killed in Games to raise concerns over their continued existence?

 

I found the additional references to animal hunts and impact on species in Rupert Matthews' "Age of Gladiators". He claims that by 350 AD, due to Games-related hunting, the North African species of elephant was extinct as well as the Balkan lion and the cheetah of the Middle East.

 

Does anyone have anything to support this? Or perhaps some thoughts on the Ancient Roman attitude towards conservation in general?

[sylla]

I've read recently in a couple of books on Ancient Rome that the thirst for bigger and more awe inspiring Games led to a massive kill-off of animals throughout the Empire and its' environs. I've read of the need to hunt further and further from Rome to find animals that were once available more locally. And I've read of animals that were killed off completely.

 

I'm reading Allessando Barbero's "The Day of the Barbarians" about the Battle at Adrianople in 378. 9 years before this momentous battle, the Emperor of the eastern Empire, Valens, signs a treaty with the Goths. A Greek rhetorician Themistius gives a speech in praise of the peace.

 

According to Barbero, Themistius says (in a combination of direct quotation and paraphrase), "We worry so much about preserving animal species, we're worried that elephants may disappear from Libya, lions from Thessaly, and hippopotamuses, from the Nile; therefore we should rejoice that a race of men, yes, barbarians, as some will say, but men, has been saved from extermination."

 

The comparison between animals and Goths is interesting, but not the topic I'm raising at the moment.

 

Clearly Themistius is referencing a common and well known concern for the preservation of animals. I'm curious is anyone else has come across similar concerns in literature? Are there any specific statistics around the amount of animals that must've been killed in Games to raise concerns over their continued existence?

 

I found the additional references to animal hunts and impact on species in Rupert Matthews' "Age of Gladiators". He claims that by 350 AD, due to Games-related hunting, the North African species of elephant was extinct as well as the Balkan lion and the cheetah of the Middle East.

 

Does anyone have anything to support this? Or perhaps some thoughts on the Ancient Roman attitude towards conservation in general?

Themistius seems to be a fascinating author indeed; unfortunately, the retrieval of some of his specific quotations has proven particularly difficult.

My impression is that he was an outmost exponent of Julian's doctrine of tolerance; indeed what religious fundamentalists usually call "apostasy".

(BTW, it would be otherwise hard to explain why on Earth would IV century Neopagans and Jews cared at all one of the other).

 

The extinction of the North African megafauna seems to have been a long (centuries or even millennia long) process; IMHO, it would be hard to assign even tentative numbers to the relative contribution of different factors. In the case of Loxodonta (africana? cyclotis? pharaonensis?) tusks and ivory trade, recreative hunting, habitat distortion, ecological conflict with agriculture, climate change and even massive taming may all have had a greater impact than the venatio requirements.

Edited September 8, 2009 by sylla

[JGolomb]

I've read recently in a couple of books on Ancient Rome that the thirst for bigger and more awe inspiring Games led to a massive kill-off of animals throughout the Empire and its' environs. I've read of the need to hunt further and further from Rome to find animals that were once available more locally. And I've read of animals that were killed off completely.

 

I'm reading Allessando Barbero's "The Day of the Barbarians" about the Battle at Adrianople in 378. 9 years before this momentous battle, the Emperor of the eastern Empire, Valens, signs a treaty with the Goths. A Greek rhetorician Themistius gives a speech in praise of the peace.

 

According to Barbero, Themistius says (in a combination of direct quotation and paraphrase), "We worry so much about preserving animal species, we're worried that elephants may disappear from Libya, lions from Thessaly, and hippopotamuses, from the Nile; therefore we should rejoice that a race of men, yes, barbarians, as some will say, but men, has been saved from extermination."

 

The comparison between animals and Goths is interesting, but not the topic I'm raising at the moment.

 

Clearly Themistius is referencing a common and well known concern for the preservation of animals. I'm curious is anyone else has come across similar concerns in literature? Are there any specific statistics around the amount of animals that must've been killed in Games to raise concerns over their continued existence?

 

I found the additional references to animal hunts and impact on species in Rupert Matthews' "Age of Gladiators". He claims that by 350 AD, due to Games-related hunting, the North African species of elephant was extinct as well as the Balkan lion and the cheetah of the Middle East.

 

Does anyone have anything to support this? Or perhaps some thoughts on the Ancient Roman attitude towards conservation in general?

Themistius seems to be a fascinating author indeed; unfortunately, the retrieval of some of his specific quotations has proven particularly difficult.

My impression is that he was an outmost exponent of Julian's doctrine of tolerance; indeed what religious fundamentalists usually call "apostasy".

(BTW, it would be otherwise hard to explain why on Earth would IV century Neopagans and Jews cared at all one of the other).

 

The extinction of the North African megafauna seems to have been a long (centuries or even millennia long) process; IMHO, it would be hard to assign even tentative numbers to the relative contribution of different factors. In the case of Loxodonta (africana? cyclotis? pharaonensis?) tusks and ivory trade, recreative hunting, habitat distortion, ecological conflict with agriculture, climate change and even massive taming may all have had a greater impact than the venatio requirements.

 

Sylla,

 

I agree...they would all play a part in the extinction process, but certainly some factors could play a larger role than others. I believe this is a similar argument to what's made about the various environmental issues we face today - identifying factors that have LARGER impact than others. There'd have to be some serious damage done by any single factor to drive extinction in the course of a couple of hundred years (not knowing any longer extinction trends, I choose to assume that those species were happy and healthy heading into the 2nd or 1st centuries BC).

 

Any impact of the Games on animals survival certainly is more glamorous than agricultural impact and I think our pop culture society would be more than willing to grasp onto the amount of animal carnage in Games required to cause an animal to go extinct.

 

Separately, Sylla, what is the meaning of your comment about Neopagans and Jews? I'm always interested in reading your message responses. :-)

[sylla]

Separately, Sylla, what is the meaning of your comment about Neopagans and Jews? I'm always interested in reading your message responses. :-)

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[Kosmo]

I had also heard blames on romans about the extinction of some species but never that they took protection measures. Very interesting.

Venatio was done often by large forces including roman legions and could have played a large role together with other factors brought by romans like the increase of population and arable land and better access to remote areas spurred by roads and pacification.

Maybe Julian was nice with Jews because he was fighting against Christians, the enemy of my enemy...

[sylla]

Maybe Julian was nice with Jews because he was fighting against Christians, the enemy of my enemy...

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam. Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[caldrail]

According to Barbero, Themistius says (in a combination of direct quotation and paraphrase), "We worry so much about preserving animal species, we're worried that elephants may disappear from Libya, lions from Thessaly, and hippopotamuses, from the Nile; therefore we should rejoice that a race of men, yes, barbarians, as some will say, but men, has been saved from extermination."

 

The comparison between animals and Goths is interesting, but not the topic I'm raising at the moment.

 

Clearly Themistius is referencing a common and well known concern for the preservation of animals. I'm curious is anyone else has come across similar concerns in literature? Are there any specific statistics around the amount of animals that must've been killed in Games to raise concerns over their continued existence?

 

Actually, you need to understand what Themistius is on about. he isn't voicing modern sentiment. The Romans believed as a society that they had mastery over nature. They revelled in it, and celebrated this superiority in their beast fights and hunts staged for the arena. In bemoaning the loss of these fine animals, what he means is not that these cute and wonderful species are no longer romping around looking magnificent, but that they are a passing symbol, a lost age, the end of a time when man struggled against nature valiantly and heroically, making do with imported creatures of wretched condition and less impressive stature.

 

Please understand what these creatures meant to the Romans. Whereas we marvel at these end-results of evolution, we see them as such because our society has developed that viewpoint and that's what we teach our children. A hundred years ago, such animals were caged up in conditions far less sanguine and without concern. For the Romans, who saw the death of a fine animal as symbolic and a kind of celebration of Roman virtue (although the fighting of animals inevitably means the fighter is tarred with being of the same stature), the animals were sources of entertainment. Certainly Romans will have looked on in awe at these strange and often dangerous animals, but that has more to do with rarity and mystique. There is an almost spiritual aspect to their regard (or lack of it) for wild animals.

 

The men who hunted these animals for transport to the arena were well paid professionals, who operated in large teams using funnel-nets and all sorts of tactics to capture them without injury to either side. Soldiers also played their part. One german-based legion boasted of their Ursarii, their 'bear hunters', who earned a substantial side-income from this activity. In fact, the entire animal-industry was a huge commercial enterpise, lucrative if somewhat risky, some animals dying en-route through lack of care or accident.

 

Perhaps Themistius had a more humanitarian view of animals. He was, however, a man born into the Roman world and we cannot assume he voices the modern concern for our enviroment that has become such a popular issue today. He is, therefore, sorry to see them go. What great displays they once made.

[sylla]

The men who hunted these animals for transport to the arena were well paid professionals, who operated in large teams using funnel-nets and all sorts of tactics to capture them without injury to either side. Soldiers also played their part. One german-based legion boasted of their Ursarii, their 'bear hunters', who earned a substantial side-income from this activity. In fact, the entire animal-industry was a huge commercial enterpise, lucrative if somewhat risky, some animals dying en-route through lack of care or accident.

A fascinating issue; would you be kind enough for posting any link to your souces here?

 

Thanks in advance.

[JGolomb]

Maybe Julian was nice with Jews because he was fighting against Christians, the enemy of my enemy...

Exactly my point; that's radical Christian logic, like Eusebius or the Medieval Inquisition, which could simultaneously charge you for being an atheist and a Muslim...

 

First, there's no evidence that the Jewish were active "enemies" of the Christians at the IV century.

 

Then, "pagans" (traditional Roman religion) despised Judaism as much as Christianity. Just check out Tacitus, Dio, Celsus, Porphyry or essentially any source.

Caldrail - terrific insight. Thank you very much.

 

It sounds like the end goal is comparable to modern days - "save the lions". Wherein our goals are cute, fuzzy, and "because-they're-living-beings", there rationale was a little more self-serving.

 

Thanks,

Jason

[Ludovicus]

I've read recently in a couple of books on Ancient Rome that the thirst for bigger and more awe inspiring Games led to a massive kill-off of animals throughout the Empire and its' environs. I've read of the need to hunt further and further from Rome to find animals that were once available more locally. And I've read of animals that were killed off completely.

 

I'm reading Allessando Barbero's "The Day of the Barbarians" about the Battle at Adrianople in 378. 9 years before this momentous battle, the Emperor of the eastern Empire, Valens, signs a treaty with the Goths. A Greek rhetorician Themistius gives a speech in praise of the peace.

 

According to Barbero, Themistius says (in a combination of direct quotation and paraphrase), "We worry so much about preserving animal species, we're worried that elephants may disappear from Libya, lions from Thessaly, and hippopotamuses, from the Nile; therefore we should rejoice that a race of men, yes, barbarians, as some will say, but men, has been saved from extermination."

 

The comparison between animals and Goths is interesting, but not the topic I'm raising at the moment.

 

Clearly Themistius is referencing a common and well known concern for the preservation of animals. I'm curious is anyone else has come across similar concerns in literature? Are there any specific statistics around the amount of animals that must've been killed in Games to raise concerns over their continued existence?

 

How interesting! By the way, do we have any idea when the European lion was exterminated?

[caldrail]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Lion

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showto...mp;hl=bestiarii

Edited November 1, 2009 by caldrail

[Nephele]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Lion

 

Not for nothing, but I would expect that our esteemed UNRV members might be able to provide reference sources a bit more scholarly than the Wikipedia Idiot's Guide to Everything.

 

-- Nephele

[caldrail]

The Idiots Guide To Everything in this case points to some documents somewhat better informed. Point taken, but then again, you can only cite superior references when you find them. Until I do, I shall have to rely on the research of other individuals who have had work published or presented on television. In any case, one has to be careful that the veracity of their sources aren't being accepted at face value without some critical appraisal. To blindly accept Suetonius as fact would be a little misguided, yet he remains a primary source.

 

Also, the use of statistics in cases where no primary source lists any can only be a derived figure at best, and I've spoken elsewhere about the dangers of relying on the manipulation of numbers to prove a point. The Romans themselves made only passing references to the numbers of beasts slaughtered in the arena, and then only in cases where the figure was substantially noteworthy. To appreciate the situation it therefore becomes necessary to utilise secondary sources because otherwise we're left with an incomplete picture. That doesn't mean our resulting picture is necessarily correct. It must be seen that our understanding of history is based on what information has been accrued and the interpretation of it. However heartfelt our picture of Roman history, there must always be a willingness to set that aside in the light of better information, something I've had to do many times on this site.

 

The reality of detailed research is that the internet isn't the tool to do it. For that you need archives, libraries, a lot of time, and in some cases, finance to support your endeavour. Wikipedia may not be the most authoritive guide, but to provide a quick answer that the majority of viewers will appreciate, it does have its uses.

 

I would also point out that since I no longer have transport, computer, or means to afford a research project, I am currently more reliant on the idiots guide than I would like to be. As things stand, a simple article I could have written overnight for these forums will now take weeks. So I'm afraid prodding me for better sources at this time is a waste of effort. I'd like to help. In fact, I'd like access to better sources too.

[Nephele]

I have a lot of problems with people citing Wikipedia as a reference source, not the least of these being that the material to be found in Wiki articles is taken from other sources by people who often don't appear to have a clue as to what they are taking, and then reworded (to avoid the appearance of plagiarism) to the point of actually creating errors in the original information. Time and again I have found such errors in Wiki articles, and I have posted about those errors here on this forum.

 

One doesn't even need to mention that Wiki articles can be altered at the whim of any delusional user with too much time on his hands and the inclination to create a Wiki account for himself. I am truly saddened to see any veteran member of this board (who knows better) steering anyone requesting information in the direction of Wikipedia.

 

I would also point out that since I no longer have transport, computer, or means to afford a research project, I am currently more reliant on the idiots guide than I would like to be. As things stand, a simple article I could have written overnight for these forums will now take weeks. So I'm afraid prodding me for better sources at this time is a waste of effort. I'd like to help. In fact, I'd like access to better sources too.

 

I really feel for your situation, Caldrail, but I thought that you spent a lot of time in your public library (you'd mentioned a few times in your blog that you use the public computers there). I'm sure your public library must have resources you can avail yourself of. If they don't, they can interloan books for you. If it takes weeks for you to research and write an article, there's nothing wrong with that. There's no deadline on articles here, nobody's impressed with overnight speed, and it may even turn out to be a better article. And, yes, I guess I am prodding you, because I know that you can do better than Wikipedia.

 

-- Nephele