Horse Racing

[lothia]

Ave,

 

I am near completion of a novel about the rise and fall of Flavius Hannibalianus (AD 335 - 337).

 

I have a collection of books that I use for reference (my private library) but I cannot find anything about betting practices in Rome. (Betting is mentioned, but the conduct of the practice is lacking)

 

First, I am interested in knowing how betting on horse (and chariot) races were conducted. I am sure they did not have the modern-day betting windows.

 

I also would like to know if bets could be made on contestants in the races who did not "Win", but came in second, third, etc.

 

I would imagine that private wagers could be made between private citizens ("I bet my horse can beat your horse"), but was this wide spread and common among the registered (if there were any) bet takers.

 

Secondly, Rome, like any civilization, lived on taxes. Were these bets (and the commission taken by the bet takers) taxed?

 

Thank you very much for your help.

 

Tom Chelmowski

[Centurion-Macro]

I know that with Chariot racing there were usually 4 colours: blue, red, green and yellow I think. People used to go around the stands asking people for bets on who they wanted to win. The names were recorded and the winners would come to collect their winnings or pay up at the end I believe. There were also unregistered bettings as well. But like modern racing they used to have odds, eg red will lose 200:1 or green has a 6:7 chance of winning.

~But you might want to check with others just incase my facts are wrong.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Centurion-Macro

[caldrail]

It is true there were four chariot racing teams (whose star drivers were a close parallel to modern formula one champions). The teams were Red, White, Blue, and Green. Nero temporarily added two more, Purple and Gold. These teams were factions in their own right whose followers became very wrapped up in the fortunes of their events. Coloured pidgeons were released over the city of Rome to inform those not sat watching the race who had won it.

 

Horse racing also existed without the chariot. One of Rome's earliest legends is the 'Rape of the Sabines', when Romulus invited his neighbouring tribe to a friendly day of horse racing and then kidnapped their wives when they were gone (our modern custom of carrying a bride across the threshold is descended from celebrations of that event)

 

I'm not sure they offered odds as we do today. More likely it was something like someone shouting "A dozen sestercii that Ambitius will not finish!", followed by "I'll take that bet!"

 

A custom known to have taken place at arena events was for the audience to buy 'bad luck' tokens, in order to curse the contestant they hated (and like modern trends, possibly throw the offending lead object at him!). Did that happen at races too? I hae no information about that but it wouldn't suprise me if they did.

 

Incidentially, whilst gambling was very popular at all levels of society it was also frowned upon and attempts were made to suppress it.

Edited August 16, 2009 by caldrail

[Klingan]

A custom known to have taken place at arena events was for the audience to buy 'bad luck' tokens, in order to curse the contestant they hated (and like modern trends, possibly throw the offending lead object at him!). D

 

What's the source for that? I would love to take a look at it!

[lothia]

Ave,

 

Thank you guys very much. I did not know about the pigeons being released after the races.

 

I would imagine that only the best of racing chariots teams and the best on horseback would make it to the big-city hippodromes.

 

But what about small city (Constantina (Tomis), and Tarraconensis (Tarragon)? I think they both had hippodromes, but unless some team is making the circuit, those cities would only feature 2nd rate race horses.

 

And that makes me wonder about horse-back racing. Would little towns have them? I could imagine on their annual Wine Festival (or something) they would have the local people putting horses up in a race.

 

I appreciate your help.

 

me.

Edited August 17, 2009 by lothia

[Kosmo]

Never heard of horseback racing in Antiquity.

Ancient Tomis is named Constanța in modern times.

[Centurion-Macro]

It is true there were four chariot racing teams (whose star drivers were a close parallel to modern formula one champions). The teams were Red, White, Blue, and Green. Nero temporarily added two more, Purple and Gold. These teams were factions in their own right whose followers became very wrapped up in the fortunes of their events. Coloured pidgeons were released over the city of Rome to inform those not sat watching the race who had won it.

 

Horse racing also existed without the chariot. One of Rome's earliest legends is the 'Rape of the Sabines', when Romulus invited his neighbouring tribe to a friendly day of horse racing and then kidnapped their wives when they were gone (our modern custom of carrying a bride across the threshold is descended from celebrations of that event)

 

I'm not sure they offered odds as we do today. More likely it was something like someone shouting "A dozen sestercii that Ambitius will not finish!", followed by "I'll take that bet!"

 

A custom known to have taken place at arena events was for the audience to buy 'bad luck' tokens, in order to curse the contestant they hated (and like modern trends, possibly throw the offending lead object at him!). Did that happen at races too? I hae no information about that but it wouldn't suprise me if they did.

 

Incidentially, whilst gambling was very popular at all levels of society it was also frowned upon and attempts were made to suppress it.

Why did Nero add two more teams?

[caldrail]

Because he felt like it I imagine, but also I suspect because he was bored with the established factions and wanted 'play god' with Roman society, and since he ordered the new factions to be created, it's probable they had his patronage, and since he himself drove chariots in the circus (badly, according to reports), would he really want to be associated with a team of a lesser colour than gold or purple? That's another interesting point because I don't remember any mention of which team Nero drove for.

[lothia]

Ave Civitas,

 

I have never heard of horseback racing in a hippodrome, but I was wondering if anyone had.

 

Concerning the renaming of Tomis, Constantine I renamed it Constantina in honor of his half-sister, also of that name. I would imagine, though I cannot find a reference to it, that it was renamed to placate his half-sister after he ordered her son executed for his implication with the usurper on Cyprus in AD 334.

 

According to Wikipedia (whose truth or accuracy is sometimes questionable) Constantine I ordered its rebuilding and renaming to Constantina. From this name came the city's present name, Constanta. I visited this city in 2006 doing research for my book, (excellent naval museum there) but I do not recall seeing a city plan that included a hippodrome, but most cities had one.

 

Thanks again. I really appreciate your help.

 

Me.

[Centurion-Macro]

Because he felt like it I imagine, but also I suspect because he was bored with the established factions and wanted 'play god' with Roman society, and since he ordered the new factions to be created, it's probable they had his patronage, and since he himself drove chariots in the circus (badly, according to reports), would he really want to be associated with a team of a lesser colour than gold or purple? That's another interesting point because I don't remember any mention of which team Nero drove for.

Very true. I suppose he wanted to put his patronage behind a 'royal' colour.

[caldrail]

I need a memory upgrade. Since I'm in the mood to correct my errors, here's some details on Nero's interests in Chariot racing...

 

From his earliest years he had a special passion for horses and talked constantly about the games in the Circus, though he was forbidden to do so. Once when he was lamenting with his fellow pupils the fate of a charioteer of the "Greens," who was dragged by his horses, and his preceptor scolded him, he told a lie and pretended that he was talking of Hector. At the beginning of his reign he used to play every day with ivory chariots on a board, and he came from the country to all the games, even the most insignificant, at first secretly, and then so openly that no one doubted that he would be in Rome on that particular day. He made no secret of his wish to have the number of prizes increased, and in consequence more races were added and the performance was continued to a late hour, while the managers of the troupes no longer thought it worth while to produce their drivers at all except for a full day's racing. He soon longed to drive a chariot himself and even to show himself frequently to the public; so after a trial exhibition in his gardens before his slaves and the dregs of the populace, he gave all an opportunity of seeing him in the Circus Maximus, one of his freedmen dropping the napkin from the place usually occupied by the magistrates...

 

...He also drove a chariot in many places, at Olympia even a ten-horse team, although in one of his own poems he had criticised Mithridates for just that thing. But after he had been thrown from the car and put back in it, he was unable to hold out and gave up before the end of the course; but he received the crown just the same....

Life of Nero (Suetonius)

 

Although Nero is described lamenting a 'Green' charioteers death, that doesn't mean he supported that faction - but it is a possible indicator. And some extra info from Wikipedia....

 

The driver's clothing was color-coded in accordance with his faction, which would help distant spectators to keep track of the race's progress. According to the disapproving Tertullian, there were originally just two factions, White and Red, sacred to winter and summer respectively. As fully developed, there were four factions, the Red, White, Green, and Blue. Each team could have up to three chariots each in a race. Members of the same team often collaborated with each other against the other teams, for example to force them to crash into the spina (a legal and encouraged tactic). Drivers could switch teams, much like athletes can be traded to different teams today.

 

By 77 BC the rivalry between the Red and the Whites was already developed, when a funeral for a Red driver involved a Red supporter throwing himself on the funeral pyre. No writer of the time, however, refers to these as factions such as came into existence later, with the factions being official organizations. Writing near the beginning of the third century, he wrote that the Reds were dedicated to Mars, the Whites to the Zephyrs, the Greens to Mother Earth or spring, and the Blues to the sky and sea or autumn. Domitian created two new factions, the Purples and Golds, which disappeared soon after he died. The Blues and the Greens gradually became the most prestigious factions, supported by emperor and populace alike. Indeed, Reds and Whites are only rarely mentioned in the surviving literature, although their continued activity is documented in inscriptions and in curse-tablets

 

For some reason I thought it was Nero who formed the extra two teams. Whoops... I apologise for that

 

He had such enthusiasm for the horse-races that he actually decorated the famous race-horses that had passed their prime with the regular street costume for men and honoured them with gifts of money for their feed. Thereupon the horsebreeders and charioteers, encouraged by this enthusiasm on his part, proceeded to treat both the praetors and the consuls with great insolence; and Aulus Fabricius, with praetor, finding them unwilling to take part in the contests on reasonable terms, dispensed with their services, and training dogs to draw chariots, introduced them in place of horses. At this, the wearers of the White and of the Red immediately entered their chariots for the races; but as the Greens and the Blues would not participate even then, Nero himself furnished the prizes for the horses and the horse-race took place....

 

....When he had finished these ceremonies, he announced a series of horse-races, and carrying into the Circus these crowns as well as all the others that he had secured by his victories in chariot-racing, he placed them around the Egyptian obelisk. The number of them was one thousand eight hundred and eight. And after doing this he appeared as a charioteer.

Roman History Books 61-62 (Cassius Dio)

 

Shortly afterwards, the information of the same men proved fatal to Subrius Flavus. At first he grounded his defence on his moral contrast to the others, implying that an armed soldier, like himself, would never have shared such an attempt with unarmed and effeminate associates. Then, when he was pressed, he embraced the glory of a full confession. Questioned by Nero as to the motives which had led him on to forget his oath of allegiance, "I hated you," he replied; "yet not a soldier was more loyal to you while you deserved to be loved. I began to hate you when you became the murderer of your mother and your wife, a charioteer, an actor, and an incendiary."

Annals (Tacitus)

Edited August 18, 2009 by caldrail

[Rompe]

Question about the Chariot Racing.

 

I know about the colours that they had and the teams. Does anyone know what would happen if

 

a) They had more competitors than colours and/or places available

 

How far in advance did a team have to "enter" to be able to have their place in the race?

 

c) If one team did not show up, have an injury, etc (or something that could cause the team not to be able to go onto the track), could another team go in under that colour for the race or if you did not show, that colour just did not get run?

 

Very intrested in this topic since I have done horse showing my entire life and it seems like so much of todays horse showing classes etc have come from the way that so many things were conducted back in Rome. I could do comparisons until I am blue in the face!

[Kosmo]

I think that the color factions were the teams.

[Northern Neil]

I think that the color factions were the teams.

By the time of the late Empire, the whites and reds had disappeared, leaving only the blues and greens. The two factions became political as well as sporting. Can anyone tell me what happened to the whites and reds?

[sylla]

I think that the color factions were the teams.

By the time of the late Empire, the whites and reds had disappeared, leaving only the blues and greens. The two factions became political as well as sporting. Can anyone tell me what happened to the whites and reds?

By the end of the VI century at most, the Reds (Rousioi) have merged with the Greens (Prasinoi) and the Whites (Leukoi) with the Blues (Venetoi).

 

I know about the colours that they had and the teams. Does anyone know what would happen if

a) They had more competitors than colours and/or places available

Physically, there were only eight places, for two chariors per team. Edited August 30, 2009 by sylla