help required

[Guest Toppers]

Ok this may sound strange, But I play by mail a game called Glory of Kings set from 1700 onwards. I currently play Tsar Peter (Peter the Great) I have after 2 wars managed to capture and control Constantinople, Thrace, Ahtens and Morea. I have just managed to make peace with the Old Believers and they want to crown me Emperor of Byzantine. Now what I need to know is this:

 

1. What is the Coronation rites and dress?

2. How is he to be adressed?

3. At this period in time there is the Holy Roman Emperor (controls the Germanic nations and Princes/Electors) How would he view this?

 

I can provide a link to the forum of the game and I can add other bits as well. But will not as it is advertising and not on.

 

So can any one help with this unusual request for help?

[sylla]

Ok this may sound strange, But I play by mail a game called Glory of Kings set from 1700 onwards. I currently play Tsar Peter (Peter the Great) I have after 2 wars managed to capture and control Constantinople, Thrace, Ahtens and Morea. I have just managed to make peace with the Old Believers and they want to crown me Emperor of Byzantine. ...

 

3. At this period in time there is the Holy Roman Emperor (controls the Germanic nations and Princes/Electors) How would he view this?

Leopold I would have considered it utterly absurd; the title makes no sense at all.

 

The so-called "Byzantine Empire" was a late fabrication from the European Enlightenment historians; the city was universally called Constantinople (even by the Turks) and the Christian emperors who ruled there up to 1453 were always called Roman Emperors, a hardly surprising fact as that was what they indeed were.

 

The Holy "Roman" Germanic Empire recognized the Tsar as an emperor at least since Maximilian I (XV century) and the Tsars considered themselves as heirs of Constantinople (the "third Rome" doctrine) at least since Ivan III and Vasili III (husband and son respectively of the daughter of Constantine XI, the last Roman Emperor). However, they never added such title to their style, presumably for avoiding unnecessary conflicts with the powerful Turks.

 

As it was, the Tsar Pyotr (Peter) I, Great as he was, managed after many wars only to capture (intermittently) the port of Azov; the Turks were still too strong and the Swedish menace too great. Had the Tsar been able to capture all the Ottoman territories in Europe as described in the Game, the other European powers would have most likely considered it an inadmissible risk and would have united themselves to help the Turks (ie, like the Crimean War one and a half centuries later); the Spanish Succession War may very well never have taken place.

Edited June 27, 2009 by sylla

[Guest Toppers]

Ok this may sound strange, But I play by mail a game called Glory of Kings set from 1700 onwards. I currently play Tsar Peter (Peter the Great) I have after 2 wars managed to capture and control Constantinople, Thrace, Ahtens and Morea. I have just managed to make peace with the Old Believers and they want to crown me Emperor of Byzantine. ...

 

3. At this period in time there is the Holy Roman Emperor (controls the Germanic nations and Princes/Electors) How would he view this?

Leopold I would have considered it utterly absurd; the title makes no sense at all.

 

The so-called "Byzantine Empire" was a late fabrication from the European Enlightenment historians; the city was universally called Constantinople (even by the Turks) and the Christian emperors who ruled there up to 1453 were always called Roman Emperors, a hardly surprising fact as that was what they indeed were.

 

The Holy "Roman" Germanic Empire recognized the Tsar as an emperor at least since Maximilian I (XV century) and the Tsars considered themselves as heirs of Constantinople (the "third Rome" doctrine) at least since Ivan III and Vasili III (husband and son respectively of the daughter of Constantine XI, the last Roman Emperor). However, they never added such title to their style, presumably for avoiding unnecessary conflicts with the powerful Turks.

 

As it was, the Tsar Pyotr (Peter) I, Great as he was, managed after many wars only to capture (intermittently) the port of Azov; the Turks were still too strong and the Swedish menace too great. Had the Tsar been able to capture all the Ottoman territories in Europe as described in the Game, the other European powers would have most likely considered it an inadmissible risk and would have united themselves to help the Turks (ie, like the Crimean War one and a half centuries later); the Spanish Succession War may very well never have taken place.

 

 

I agree the title Byzantine Empire was a late 1600 thing after a few writers mentioned it in their writings it took hold. Eastern Roman Empire is the correct title I believe, I will adress that with the guy who runs the game.

 

No one has challanged me because they are to busy fighting over the Holy Roman Empire as the late Archduke died and left a female heir who cannot by salic law inherit. They had an election in which the Prince of Hanover won and this was disputed by the King of Spain, a Hapsburg and former ruler of Austria who gave it up to take on Spain and its empire. Now there is a massive arguement about who rules what in the former HRE.

Regarding the Ottomans I had fought and won Constantinople off them before peace was settled. Then the Shah invaded and defeated them and took control of the rest. Feeling cocky he attacked Constantinople and managed to force me out. I returned and fought him and won it back, he did not have the money to persue the war and was in danger of going bankrupt and his troops had not been paid for a long time. So we came to an arrangement whereas I rule every thing from the west of Constantinople and he the east, thus the former lands at least in part of the ERE.

 

So I just need information on the coronation rites and the correct form of adress so I can deal with the other rulers in Europe and beyond and also enhance my prestige in the game....

 

Thxs for your thoughts BTW....

 

I also read that at one time the western empire gave up up its rights and sent the impreial regalia to Constantinople and placed a barbarian in chanrge odacer or the like? Did this mean that Constantinople was the true Roman Empire then?

Lastly what was its relationship with Rome and the Pope?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Toppers

[sylla]

I agree the title Byzantine Empire was a late 1600 thing after a few writers mentioned it in their writings it took hold. Eastern Roman Empire is the correct title I believe, I will adress that with the guy who runs the game.

 

No one has challanged me because they are to busy fighting over the Holy Roman Empire as the late Archduke died and left a female heir who cannot by salic law inherit. They had an election in which the Prince of Hanover won and this was disputed by the King of Spain, a Hapsburg and former ruler of Austria who gave it up to take on Spain and its empire. Now there is a massive arguement about who rules what in the former HRE.

Regarding the Ottomans I had fought and won Constantinople off them before peace was settled. Then the Shah invaded and defeated them and took control of the rest. Feeling cocky he attacked Constantinople and managed to force me out. I returned and fought him and won it back, he did not have the money to persue the war and was in danger of going bankrupt and his troops had not been paid for a long time. So we came to an arrangement whereas I rule every thing from the west of Constantinople and he the east, thus the former lands at least in part of the ERE.

 

So I just need information on the coronation rites and the correct form of adress so I can deal with the other rulers in Europe and beyond and also enhance my prestige in the game....

 

Thxs for your thoughts BTW....

 

I also read that at one time the western empire gave up up its rights and sent the impreial regalia to Constantinople and placed a barbarian in chanrge odacer or the like? Did this mean that Constantinople was the true Roman Empire then?

Lastly what was its relationship with Rome and the Pope?

Coronation rites seem to have been a little complex issue; for the purposes of your game, H. Thurston article on Catholic Encyclopedia may be enough; however, if more precision is required, you should probably check out other sources, vg from the Orthodox Church.

 

The titles of the last Roman Emperors at the XV century were the same as those from any other of their predecessors.

However, western European chroniclers frequently tried to make a big deal from translation issues, because they tended to pretend the "Roman" (???) title was reserved for the Holy Germanic Emperor (the Hapsburg in your game); nowadays it would be like stating that Juan Carlos de Borbon of Spain is not a "King", but a "Rey".

The regular titles were Basileus (Sovereign) Autokrator (Emperor) of the Romans.

(The Western Emperors were called by them "Kings of the Franks").

 

After the death of Theodosius I, both the Western half under Honorius at Ravenna (not Rome) and the Eastern half under Arcadius at Constantinople were equally and

Edited June 28, 2009 by sylla

[Guest Toppers]

I agree the title Byzantine Empire was a late 1600 thing after a few writers mentioned it in their writings it took hold. Eastern Roman Empire is the correct title I believe, I will adress that with the guy who runs the game.

 

No one has challanged me because they are to busy fighting over the Holy Roman Empire as the late Archduke died and left a female heir who cannot by salic law inherit. They had an election in which the Prince of Hanover won and this was disputed by the King of Spain, a Hapsburg and former ruler of Austria who gave it up to take on Spain and its empire. Now there is a massive arguement about who rules what in the former HRE.

Regarding the Ottomans I had fought and won Constantinople off them before peace was settled. Then the Shah invaded and defeated them and took control of the rest. Feeling cocky he attacked Constantinople and managed to force me out. I returned and fought him and won it back, he did not have the money to persue the war and was in danger of going bankrupt and his troops had not been paid for a long time. So we came to an arrangement whereas I rule every thing from the west of Constantinople and he the east, thus the former lands at least in part of the ERE.

 

So I just need information on the coronation rites and the correct form of adress so I can deal with the other rulers in Europe and beyond and also enhance my prestige in the game....

 

Thxs for your thoughts BTW....

 

I also read that at one time the western empire gave up up its rights and sent the impreial regalia to Constantinople and placed a barbarian in chanrge odacer or the like? Did this mean that Constantinople was the true Roman Empire then?

Lastly what was its relationship with Rome and the Pope?

Coronation rites seem to have been a little complex issue; for the purposes of your game, H. Thurston article on Catholic Encyclopedia may be enough; however, if more precision is required, you should probably check out other sources, vg from the Orthodox Church.

 

The titles of the last Roman Emperors at the XV century were the same as those from any other of their predecessors.

However, western European chroniclers frequently tried to make a big deal from translation issues, because they tended to pretend the "Roman" (???) title was reserved for the Holy Germanic Emperor (the Hapsburg in your game); nowadays it would be like stating that Juan Carlos de Borbon of Spain is not a "King", but a "Rey".

The regular titles were Basileus (Sovereign) Autokrator (Emperor) of the Romans.

(The Western Emperors were called by them "Kings of the Franks").

 

After the death of Theodosius I, both the Western half under Honorius at Ravenna (not Rome) and the Eastern half under Arcadius at Constantinople were equally and

[Guest Toppers]

Ok so I am about to be crowned Emperor and Autokrator of the Romans in this game in Constantinople by the Patriarch there.

 

Can any one shed any light on the emblem/arms of the Emperor?

 

I have seen a few images, but trying to get some thing deffinate for the game and my letters.....

Edited September 27, 2009 by Toppers

[Northern Neil]

I also read that at one time the western empire gave up up its rights and sent the impreial regalia to Constantinople and placed a barbarian in chanrge odacer or the like? Did this mean that Constantinople was the true Roman Empire then?

Lastly what was its relationship with Rome and the Pope?

 

To clarify an earlier point:

 

Officially, the Empire was re-unified when Odoacer sent the imperial regalia to Constantinople, stating that there was no need for two emperors. The term 'Eastern Roman Empire', much like the term 'Byzantine' is a convention used by ourselves - as Colin McEvedy puts it (Penguin Atlas of Medieval History): '...to recognise the many differences between the Classical Empire of Rome, and the Roman Empire of Constantinople'. From about 200AD until its fall in 1453, the Roman Empire was known as 'Romania' by its citizens and everyone else. This is echoed in the name 'Romagna' which was the part of Italy that remained in Roman hands throughout the Dark Ages.

[sylla]

I also read that at one time the western empire gave up up its rights and sent the impreial regalia to Constantinople and placed a barbarian in chanrge odacer or the like? Did this mean that Constantinople was the true Roman Empire then?

Lastly what was its relationship with Rome and the Pope?

 

To clarify an earlier point:

 

Officially, the Empire was re-unified when Odoacer sent the imperial regalia to Constantinople, stating that there was no need for two emperors. The term 'Eastern Roman Empire', much like the term 'Byzantine' is a convention used by ourselves - as Colin McEvedy puts it (Penguin Atlas of Medieval History): '...to recognise the many differences between the Classical Empire of Rome, and the Roman Empire of Constantinople'. From about 200AD until its fall in 1453, the Roman Empire was known as 'Romania' by its citizens and everyone else. This is echoed in the name 'Romagna' which was the part of Italy that remained in Roman hands throughout the Dark Ages.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[Northern Neil]

The term "Byzantine Empire", on the other hand, is just a deliberate falsified revisionist construct, developed at most as late as the XVI century, but not in widespread use until at least the European Enlightenment of the late XVIII century, which essentially tries to absurdly deny the Roman nature of the Emperors and Empire of Constantinople, evidently not for their "many differences" with the Classical Empire (clearly of far lesser magnitude than those from let say the still Chinese "Empires

[sylla]

The term "Byzantine Empire", on the other hand, is just a deliberate falsified revisionist construct, developed at most as late as the XVI century, but not in widespread use until at least the European Enlightenment of the late XVIII century, which essentially tries to absurdly deny the Roman nature of the Emperors and Empire of Constantinople, evidently not for their "many differences" with the Classical Empire (clearly of far lesser magnitude than those from let say the still Chinese "Empires

[Guest Toppers]

Hi me again lost my login when my computer crashed.....

 

Every thing is going realy well in the game I mentioned earlier. I also have spititual control of Jerusalem, My Patriarch being the one who the Muslims will deal with, the Roman catholics have had theirs deported under pain of death!

 

I am currently trying to get the Patriarch of Alexandira and Africa into my gang, just awaiting a reply.

 

Could any one inform me what my Son would be called in the game if I am the Emperor of the Romans? As the Tsar successor he is called Tsarevich in Russia but I believe that he may have another title because I am the Emperor of the Romans now?

 

Thanks....

Edited May 20, 2010 by Toppers

[Romanus]

Hi me again lost my login when my computer crashed.....

 

Every thing is going realy well in the game I mentioned earlier. I also have spititual control of Jerusalem, My Patriarch being the one who the Muslims will deal with, the Roman catholics have had theirs deported under pain of death!

 

I am currently trying to get the Patriarch of Alexandira and Africa into my gang, just awaiting a reply.

 

Could any one inform me what my Son would be called in the game if I am the Emperor of the Romans? As the Tsar successor he is called Tsarevich in Russia but I believe that he may have another title because I am the Emperor of the Romans now?

 

Thanks....

Alexius IV or Anastasius III would work Romanus IV would be a very strong name in both Russia and restored rome but if you are willing to see how well the person running the game knows history then have his last name changed to Palaeologus with the title the Marble Emperor Constantine XII.

[Guest Toppers]

Hi me again lost my login when my computer crashed.....

 

Every thing is going realy well in the game I mentioned earlier. I also have spititual control of Jerusalem, My Patriarch being the one who the Muslims will deal with, the Roman catholics have had theirs deported under pain of death!

 

I am currently trying to get the Patriarch of Alexandira and Africa into my gang, just awaiting a reply.

 

Could any one inform me what my Son would be called in the game if I am the Emperor of the Romans? As the Tsar successor he is called Tsarevich in Russia but I believe that he may have another title because I am the Emperor of the Romans now?

 

Thanks....

Alexius IV or Anastasius III would work Romanus IV would be a very strong name in both Russia and restored rome but if you are willing to see how well the person running the game knows history then have his last name changed to Palaeologus with the title the Marble Emperor Constantine XII.

 

thanks for the infor but I mean is there a title that my son can claim as I am the Emperor ( My full title is : Peter I, Emperor of the Romans, Tsar of all the Russias, Defender of the Faith) So what can I give my son apart from Tsarevich (The Russian version of next in line)

[Kosmo]

The title "caesar" was reserved by romans for heirs apparent but this was no longer practiced during late "byzantine" period. The title "despot" would be the most appropriate for your son(s) from a byzantine stand point.

In Russia after Peter proclaimed himself emperor "tsarevich" fell out of use and was replaced by "tsesarevich" or "caesarevich". Your heir should also be named Succesor = "Naslednik" and all your sons should be Grand Dukes = "Veliky Kniaz"

In your full title should be also the byzantine title "autokrator".

[Guest Toppers]

The title "caesar" was reserved by romans for heirs apparent but this was no longer practiced during late "byzantine" period. The title "despot" would be the most appropriate for your son(s) from a byzantine stand point.

In Russia after Peter proclaimed himself emperor "tsarevich" fell out of use and was replaced by "tsesarevich" or "caesarevich". Your heir should also be named Succesor = "Naslednik" and all your sons should be Grand Dukes = "Veliky Kniaz"

In your full title should be also the byzantine title "autokrator".

 

 

Yup got that in forgot to add it above.

 

Thanks for the assistance