WotWotius

Yes but when a civilization prospers its wealth is only reflected upon the higher classes (e.g. senators, emperors and wealthy entrepreneurs); this was indeed apparent within Imperial Rome as her society was greatly divided monetarily. So the great economic divide between the rich and urban poor itself could be perceived as a great 'social injustice'. That was the whole point of my essay! The various 'carrot and stick' methods employed by the Caesars was most probably the sole reason for the diminutive amount of unrest experience during the time of the principate. ...the use of the Praetorians, as well as random act of cruelty, were methods of Imperial control which I stated in my essay. I just did not really develop these points as much as I intended to (I was seduced by the prospect of sleep). So it hardly seems feasibly that you disagree with all my points. Oh, and please do not spam your response to emphasis your point...I get it, you disagree with me!

www.roman-britain.org www.roman-empire.net Other than UNRV, these sites got me iterested in Roman History.

This mini-documentary contains information which you probably already know, but it does give a nice brief overview of the event in discussion.

Thank you, I have just got a copy from my library...very useful indeed.

Yup, but the Poles helped: Battle of Grunwald

Is there any evidence for the British serving on the eastern front?

Ok I have one more question to ask the UNRV experts before I depart for a week

Unbelievable! I had hoped to see this group today, but other commitments got in the way. I swapped e mails with them only yesterday, and I didnt know about this specialisation . Well done WW. The Syrians are attested at Banna-quite an odd detachment in this locality. Syrian bowmen did serve in Roman Britain. Evidence for the Cohort in Britain.

Sorry, that may have sounded a bit facetious, but I am curious to know.

Yes, as Tacitus would say, the empire rolled smoothly and efficiently over the men of conscience, ability, and decency. Since such men are always in the minority, the general public might be revolted by such behavior, but it seldom leads them to revolt if they're otherwise pacified by bread and circuses (as Wot Wotius correctly observes). The question, however, is whether the cumulative effect of these political murders is inexoribly the breakdown of all law and order (which the public is unlikely to tolerate) or whether this breakdown happens so slowly that the public finds it tolerable enough that they seek only reform but not revolution. Yes, during the time of Domitian when the Empire was relatively new, Rome's economy could afford to maintain such a decedent ruler. However, if we enter the time of Commodus and beyond, when the Imperial treasury have suffered near depletion (due to various wars etc.), a luxury-seeking tyrant could, and was ruinous for the Empire. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Gibbon puts some blame on Commodus' antics for the decline of Rome.

Yes , and here is their favoured Deity-I had this filed away because I thought they were such a remote and unusual group. http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?&a...=si&img=973 Very nice. Does their deity have a name?

When you mention Syrians, are you refering to the archers?

I have managed to locate some Batavi re-enactors as well as a very interesting website.

This may reassure you all after seeing Mr Diesel's Hannibal film: 300 It is a film based on Frank Miller's graphic novel, '300' about the famous heroic 'last stand' by Sparta at Thermopylae, 480 BC. Among Frank Millers other work is the highly stylised noir-pic, Sin City (a profusely violent film you may have heard of ). According to early sources, it is indicated that '300' will be shot in a way not to dissimilar to Sin City. So this basically means that the sword and sandal epic could now have the added 'oomph' which haven't seen since the days of Gladiator. Mr Diesel's 'Hannibal' may soon just be a distant memory...

As you have probably worked out I voted for Hastings: the battle instigated the rise of a new ruling dynasty, which has lasted to this very day still coated in rich history.

So which one do you think it is?

Apparently Roman Britain was one of the largest exporters of Dogs within the Empire: the province contained many specialist breeds. Though I was wondering whether dogs were ever used by the indigenous Britons prior to the Roman occupation. Any idea?

Wow! I can actually afford it. Thank you.

That would seem fairly fitting. In addition, Domitian seemed to have a sense of social inadequacy, often disappearing half way through an imperial banquet to go sit alone on a boat. He also refused the title of Dacius for his reasonable military success on the Danube as he felt like he did not deserve it. So if you want to take an

Where might I find the 'Roman Auxiliary Cavalryman Ad 14-193' book you mentioned?

Phew, I'm glad this forum has stopped being so serious; I only wanted to post my essay, not get into a heated debate with M. Porcius Cato.

I was not disputing whether or not Roman society would collapse if the law court were removed, I just believe that using the law courts as a means of controlling the population is secondary at best, though I do see your view point. Domitian, to use an example, ruled in a more than tyrannical manner (asking to worshiped etc.), asserting his control via random acts of cruelty and draconian punishments, but also with luscious games: 'He constantly gave grand and costly entertainments, both in the amphitheatre [Arkenberg: The Colosseum], and in the Circus, where in addition to the usual races between two-horse and four-horse chariots, he also exhibited two battles, one between forces of infantry and the other by horsemen; and he even gave a naval battle in the amphitheatre.' Suetonius's life of Domitian He did however make a fine juridicus: 'He administered justice scrupulously and conscientiously, frequently holding special sittings on the tribunal in the Forum. He rescinded such decisions of the Hundred Judges as were made from interested motives. He often warned the arbiters not to grant claims for freedom made under false pretences. He degraded jurors who accepted bribes, together with all their associates. He also induced the tribunes of the commons to prosecute a corrupt aedile for extortion, and to ask the Senate to appoint jurors in the case. He took such care to exercise restraint over the city officials and the governors of the provinces, that at no time were they more honest or just, whereas after his time we have seen many of them charged with all manner of offences. ' Suetonius' life of Domitian So the fact that Domitian followed the 'carrot, stick and justice' model could have been the reason he stayed in power for so long, even though he had grave misgivings as person. What I meant was that despite the apparent existence of legal justice, Rome's poor were still suffering form social injustices.

The Batavians (or Batavii) were a tribe who, according to Tacitus, lived around the Rhine delta. Hardened by border wars against Germans and Gauls, the Batavians were not warriors to be reckoned with. When Rome incorporated their lands into her Empire, the tribe became an excellent auxiliary force as they had the ability to swim in their armour. They were eventually used in the Claudian invasion of Britain 43 AD; Dio refers to their use during the battle of Medway River: 'The barbarians thought that Romans would not be able to cross it without a bridge, and consequently bivouacked in rather careless fashion on the opposite bank; but he sent across a detachment of Germans, who were accustomed to swim easily in full armour across the most turbulent streams. These fell unexpectedly upon the enemy, but instead of shooting at any of the men they confined themselves to wounding the horses that drew their chariots; and in the confusion that followed not even the enemy's mounted warriors could save themselves.' Dio's Histories, Book LX, chapter 20 But what I would like to know is whether there is such a thing as a Batavian re-enactment group: watching them swim in their armour would be a real sight to see.

It is my view that Plato was indeed referring to the island of Santorini's destruction by the eruption of a Volcano located at the centre of the island (the same eruption which single-handedly wiped out the Minoans on Create). Before this island of Minoan civilization collapsed into the Aegean, its structure almost fitted Plato's description of Atlantis: an island in the sea encircled by a strip of land. Additionally, the fact that the island collapsed into the sea could add to the theory of it being Atlantis. Santorini's pre-eurption structure. Modern day Santorini Its just a theory, any views on it?

I think that this quote from Gildas' The Ruin of Britain may be useful to this discussion. Chapter 23 Then all the councillors, together with that proud tyrant Gurthrigern [Vortigern], the British king, were so blinded, that, as a protection to their country, they sealed its doom by inviting in among them (like wolves into the sheep-fold), the fierce and impious Saxons, a race hateful both to God and men, to repel the invasions of the northern nations. Nothing was ever so pernicious to our country, nothing was ever so unlucky. What palpable darkness must have enveloped their minds--darkness desperate and cruel! Those very people whom, when absent, they dreaded more than death itself, were invited to reside, as one may say, under the selfsame roof. Foolish are the princes, as it is said, of Thafneos, giving counsel to unwise Pharaoh. A multitude of whelps came forth from the lair of this barbaric lioness, in three cyuls, as they call them, that is, in three ships of war, with their sails wafted by the wind and with omens and prophecies favourable, for it was foretold by a certain soothsayer among them, that they should occupy the country to which they were sailing three hundred years, and half of that time, a hundred and fifty years, should plunder and despoil the same. They first landed on the eastern side of the island, by the invitation of the unlucky king, and there fixed their sharp talons, apparently to fight in favour of the island, but alas! more truly against it. Their mother-land, finding her first brood thus successful, sends forth a larger company of her wolfish offspring, which sailing over, join themselves to their bastard-born comrades. From that time the germ of iniquity and the root of contention planted their poison amongst us, as we deserved, and shot forth into leaves and branches. The barbarians being thus introduced as soldiers into the island, to encounter, as they falsely said, any dangers in defence of their hospitable entertainers, obtain an allowance of provisions, which, for some time being plentifully bestowed, stopped their doggish mouths. Yet they complain that their monthly supplies are not furnished in sufficient abundance, and they industriously aggravate each occasion of quarrel, saying that unless more liberality is shown them, they will break the treaty and plunder the whole island. In a short time, they follow up their threats with deeds. Chapter 24 For the fire of vengeance, justly kindled by former crimes, spread from sea to sea, fed by the hands of our foes in the east, and did not cease, until, destroying the neighbouring towns and lands, it reached the other side of the island, and dipped its red and savage tongue in the western ocean. In these assaults, therefore, not unlike that of the Assyrian upon Judea, was fulfilled in our case what the prophet describes in words of lamentation: "They have burned with fire the sanctuary; they have polluted on earth the tabernacle of thy name." And again, "O God, the gentiles have come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled," &c. So that all the columns were levelled with the ground by the frequent strokes of the battering-ram, all the husbandmen routed, together with their bishops, priests, and people, whilst the sword gleamed, and the flames crackled around them on every side. Lamentable to behold, in the midst of the streets lay the tops of lofty towers, tumbled to the ground, stones of high walls, holy altars, fragments of human bodies, covered with livid clots of coagulated blood, looking as if they had been squeezed together in a press; and with no chance of being buried, save in the ruins of the houses, or in the ravening bellies of wild beasts and birds; with reverence be it spoken for their blessed souls, if, indeed, there were many found who were carried, at that time, into the high heaven by the holy angels. So entirely had the vintage, once so fine, degenerated and become bitter, that, in the words of the prophet, there was hardly a grape or ear of corn to be seen where the husbandman had turned his back. Chapter 25 Some, therefore, of the miserable remnant, being taken in the mountains, were murdered in great numbers; others, constrained by famine, came and yielded themselves to be slaves for ever to their foes, running the risk of being instantly slain, which truly was the greatest favour that could be offered them: some others passed beyond the seas with loud lamentations instead of the voice of exhortation. "Thou hast given us as sheep to be slaughtered, and among the Gentiles hast thou dispersed us." Others, committing the safeguard of their lives, which were in continual jeopardy, to the mountains, precipices, thickly wooded forests, and to the rocks of the seas (albeit with trembling hearts), remained still in their country. But in the meanwhile, an opportunity happening, when these most cruel robbers were returned home, the poor remnants of our nation (to whom flocked from divers places round about our miserable countrymen as fast as bees to their hives, for fear of an ensuing storm), being strengthened by God, calling upon him with all their hearts, as the poet says,-- "With their unnumbered vows they burden heaven," that they might not be brought to utter destruction, took arms under the conduct of Ambrosius Aurelianus, a modest man, who of all the Roman nation was then alone in the confusion of this troubled period by chance left alive. His parents, who for their merit were adorned with the purple, had been slain in these same broils, and now his progeny in these our days, although shamefully degenerated from the worthiness of their ancestors, provoke to battle their cruel conquerors, and by the goodness of our Lord obtain the victory. Chapter 26 After this, sometimes our countrymen, sometimes the enemy, won the field, to the end that our Lord might in this land try after his accustomed manner these his Israelites, whether they loved him or not, until the year of the siege of Mount Badon [Note: Giles translates "Badonici montis" as "of Bath-hill"], when took place also the last almost, though not the least slaughter of our cruel foes, which was (as I am sure) forty-four years and one month after the landing of the Saxons, and also the time of my own nativity. And yet neither to this day are the cities of our country inhabited as before, but being forsaken and overthrown, still lie desolate; our foreign wars having ceased, but our civil troubles still remaining. For as well the remembrance of such a terrible desolation of the island, as also of the unexpected recovery of the same, remained in the minds of those who were eyewitnesses of the wonderful events of both, and in regard thereof, kings, public magistrates, and private persons, with priests and clergymen, did all and every one of them live orderly according to their several vocations. But when these had departed out of this world, and a new race succeeded, who were ignorant of this troublesome time, and had only experience of the present prosperity, all the laws of truth and justice were so shaken and subverted, that not so much as a vestige or remembrance of these virtues remained among the above-named orders of men, except among a very few who, compared with the great multitude which were daily rushing headlong down to hell, are accounted so small a number, that our reverend mother, the church, scarcely beholds them, her only true children, reposing in her bosom; whose worthy lives, being a pattern to all men, and beloved of God, inasmuch as by their holy prayers, as by certain pillars and most profitable supporters, our infirmity is sustained up, that it may not utterly be broken down, I would have no one suppose I intended to reprove, if forced by the increasing multitude of offences, I have freely, aye, with anguish, not so much declared as bewailed the wickedness of those who are become servants, not only to their bellies, but also to the devil rather than to Christ, who is our blessed God, world without end.