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listen, you claimed that all of Northern Italians came from the Ligurians!! And thats dead wrong, North Italy is Modern Liguria-Val D'Aosta-Piemonte Emilia Romagna-lombardia-Friuli Venezia Giulia-Veneto -Trentino Alto Adige. This is what one reffers to as North Italy. And more than 75% of this terretory was covered by Raetians-Etruscans-Veneti.Only less than 25% are than left for ligurians. Not counting the north of Tuscany. And than comes the debate of what is Liguruian, were salassi in Val d'aosta Celts or celt-ligurians. And if they are celt-ligurian than does this terretory belongs to the Ligurians? And if Milan ever was ligurian is a myth, the terretory was Celtic.

I can repeat myself 50 more times, Ceres is an Italic goddess, so the Romans didnt need to worship a greek deity for beer. The saw beer in its ingredients, and praised Ceres for it. And the word is Latin!! And Romans brewed Beer and called it Cervisia long before they went anywhere near iberia!! wow, great the iberians brew beer, ask me if i care. The Iberians took the roman latin words and descriptions for that beverage, later on. You can continue with your assumption jokes of where i apperently got my info from, the fact is, dont bother to test me about beer.

And i think you should get a map of northern Italy, and compare the Venti terretory and the Ligurian one. And i hope you do know that the Raetians(Alpine tribe) were also present in northern italy. Verona was a raetian settlement.

Furthermore if there is one subject that you can trust I know what I'm talking about, it is beer! Same here, i am a patron to a local beer brewing factory in my home region in germany. HerbstH

No, i am not questioning DNA tests. But i am questioning the sources of such DNA tests. It wouldnt suprise me if such DNA tests that are done in the name of certain societies, are manipulated. DNA tests as such, if done by a serious source, are ofcourse correct. And for the Ligurian claim, i disagree strongly, Ligurians did not cover Northern Italy. They covered the North west coast of italy and parts of modern day piemonte. The Veneti covered larger parts of northern Italy. But all those were minimized by the celts anyway. Than the Romans came and sorted out hugely. Once the Romans were done, only a very small minority of Celts Veneti and Ligurians remaind in Northern Italy. The Ligurians remaind at their coast. But not within the so called TERRA FERMA. @Virgil61 I agree with the linguistic part, and understand your point. but i never claimed that Northern Italians are Genetically linked with modern day germans. But Germanic culture and blood can be found in alot of northern italian fields. P.S: Can you tell me something about the last name MEZZENZANA its a name that only appears in North Italy,(Novara-Milano-Varese provinces) what does this name mean? Something with, Half, right?

Wrong, the name Cervisia comes from the Roman goddess Ceres . and has nothing to do with the basques or iberians. Ceres was the Goddess of Wild Berries and Crops. So your info about Cervisia coming from iberia is wrong. Cerveza is the term spaniards use now for beer, but Cerveza comes from the Roman Latin word Cervisia. The Romans brewed beer long before something like a brewery existed in iberia! And as for barbarians, i dont know about celts, but Germanics didnt brew beer before the romans, because of missing ingredients. The Beer that Tacitus is reffering to, is MET , same colour and similar smell to Cervisia. But it wasnt beer.

Yes, but these DNA tests are sometimes dubios, i dont know what DNA test you are reffering to, but there is that organization in Northern Italy, called UNIVERSITAS STUDIORUM INSUBRIAE, which constantly wants to uphold the claims that North Italians are decendents of the Celtic Insubrians and Boii, that inhabited that region before the Romans came. But there are clear documents that the Romans butchered or deported nearly all of the Boii and Insubrians in that region, and filled it up with the roman veterans(that conquered it) and their families and Sabine(Italic) farmers from central italy. This region became Cisalpine Gaul. There are also reports of DNA testings in Ravenna(italy), the old capitol of the East-Goths, claiming east-gothic strains. I dont buy this celtic and east-gothic claim. it could be that people in Ravenna have East-Gothic blood, but its not significant(even if its true). The Lombards, came with houndreds of thousands of people, and they didnt leave. They fused. There are thousands of documents of mixed italic and Lombard marrigies in the early 8th centuray a.d.. But as i stated, the Lombard blood went up in the Italic blood. But the Last and only decendents of the Lombards are the northern Italians.(while the goths completely dissapeared.)

http://www.hadrians.com/rome/romans/food/roman_dinner.html This link states that the Patricians and wealthier Plebs, ate alot of Meat. Romans in general ate alot of Pork and Lamb.(mentioned alot of times in texts from Apicius cook book) And lets not forget Beer, Beer originated from Babylon and the first Brewers were egyptians. It than swept to greek islands and than to Magna Grecia, were the Romans took it over after they conquered it. Roman Legions brought beer "Cervisia" to the barbarians. Before, the Germanics, drank a differrent alcoholic beverage: MET , which was of Honey, Water and Yeast. so alcohol was a very important part of the Legions, because especially beer is considered a liquid type of food. The German Monks, in the winters of the middle ages, drank alot of strong beer to gain nutritions. Because of its high calories, it was an optimal replacement against food shortage. So beer and alcohol was a vital part for the Roman Legions. I am not quiet sure about the General Roman Soldier Diet in terms of food, but could it be that it was similar to the Diet, the Gladiators had? Because gladiators had an optimal diet.

Wouldnt go that far. To claim ALL Northern Italians are of Germanic Blood. The Numbers of Langobards compared to the local Italic-Roman population was 3 to 1 for the Italics. So the Mass Majority was Romance. The Langobards were the ones that addepted to Latin and to local customs. And the total Fusion was straining, but it eventually happend. The langobards influenced the Nothern Italian Romance culture with Architecture( The Romanic and Germanic element fused in Architectrure in Northern Italy) and Linguistics, the modern Milanese dialect and the southern Swiss dialect(Ticino) are Lombard dialects(fusion of the germanic dialect and Latin) and belong to the Romance Languages. There was no other ethnic fusion in Northern italy, except for that. But the Lombard germanic blood went up in the Romance blood. So modern North-Italians have a good size trace of Germanic Blood. And a lot of Northern Italian culture and architecture is Romanic-Langobard(germanic) fused. There are further debates about ethnic fusion in europe. Especially in Spain. The spanish for the most part claim to be the direct decendents of the West-Goths. This theory upsetted most swedish nationalists, because they claim that they are the only decendents of the Goths. I also dont buy it, that the modern spaniard is of West-Gothic blood. Due to the fact that they have been conquered and ruled by the Moors (african/arabic moslems) for houndreds of years and that Madrid was founded by Moslems and the Moors had a huge influence as such, after the Gothic Kingdoms. and the Goths were pushed into Spain by the Franks, so not many goths survived the Frank battles in the First place. well, the Renaissance was more Central italian(Tuscany) than North Italian. So it is Un-Disputed Italic. Although the Tuscan Royalties had a massive influence from the Carolingians. And i believe that Dante was half german, but not very sure. The whole notion is that the Romans layed the Foundation of Europe, with Road Building, Bridge Building, The unification of a written letter system, calenders, Building Cities etc. etc. and that the Germans, took the roman foundation to the next level, thats why the first German empire was called Holy ROMAN, as a tribute to the Romans. So the Roman and Germanic elemnt was always crossed.

Yes, i cant tell about other Euro school systems, but in germany, yes. But its strictly textbook learning, and mostly of the non german view. Its a very strange issue, were a teacher has to be carefull. Thats how it is in germnay. And how i remember it.

I think you are dramatizing the Goths. the West-Goths sacked Rome, but left it intact and not harming it and its citizens at all! And dont forget that the Romans butchered over 30.000 Goths, because some authorities got paranoid. But the Roman Gothic relation is a different chapter, and cant be linked with the Gallic wars. You often reffer to the Celts and Gauls being faithful friends of Rome, but i disagree. The Celts were a constant threat to hispania and the newly conquered Transalpine Gaul province. The Helvetii issue, was also way before the Gallic Wars. And dont forget about Cisalpine Gaul, which was mostly conquered before the second Punic War. And in the Second Punic War and in the Cimbrian War the gauls always joined the opposition, against Rome. So the overall relation between Romans and Celtic Gauls wasnt as rosie as you put it. And if you already mention Caesars positive attitude towards Ariovistus, than you should also mention that he saw Ariovistus as a Friend because Ariovistus was killing off the Celts in modern day Belgium and Westphalia Germany. Later caesar realized the possibility of capturing Gallia, but needed to defeat the Suebi first, and he did. Well, its debateble wether some actions in the Gallic Wars, were illegal. But lets not forget that if Caesar had not conquered Britain and Gallia, than europe would be houndreds of years behind, in every aspect.And the British and Fench empires would have never taken place.

I Agree with Tobias.

@Ursus Ok, i will correct it. What i tried to explain there was that in the Roman View, they were all one, Barbarians. But i am very precise, when it comes to germanic culture, and one has to really devide Celtic and Germanic culture in most fields. So yes, Celts Germanics Italics greeks etc. have all similarities. Because of their indo-European backround. But there are differences. and they need to be considered. I will apologize for stating it so radical. @Viggen Yes, from the Roman point of view. But from the Germanic point of view, all those who did not share the same faith or spoke their language dialects, they were strangers. The Celts were called WELSH (Stranger , and during the germanic invasion of Britain it became known as Slave) and the SLAVS were called WENDEN . So their was a definition of Germanic although the actual term "Germanic" was used later on. For the RACIST part, their is an interesting discussion in europe. There is an Italian Soccer player Paolo DiCanio, who was born somewhere around Rome, and plays for SS LAZIO, an italian soccer club based in Rome. He Flashed a salute to his and the club fans, that is disputed. Its the salute with the outstretched RIGHT arm. This is the salute which became famous in the 20th centuary as the Nazi Sieg Heil salute. But over 2000 years ago the Romans used it first, saluting their Leaders. The most famous was AVE CAESAR. This player has now been banned for 1 match and fined a huge amount of money. Because they said it was the Fascist salute, while the player insists it was the ROMAN Salute. You decide. Thats the Dilemma in Continental Europe. The Dictators missused so many great Ancient attributes, that they are now illegal. @Ursus "Saying all Germanic polytheists are Nazis is like saying all Roman pagans follow Mussolini's politics. It's stupid." I agree, but the mass majority of europeans, dont want to evaluate the 1930s and 1940s. They just want to forget. They condemn all signs and things that accured during that era and want it banned. So the Nordic Mythology is hit hard. Because it was a massive part of Hitlers propaganda. If people start to realize, that Nordic mythology or ancient paganism as such is not to blame for false pride and Justifications of mass murders, than the old Gods that our ancestors believed in, can find a more respectable place in modern society.

@Zeke I disagree that Christianity isnt as important in Germany than in Italy or Greece. Bavaria is heavily catholic, and now that there is a bavarian pope it got a whole lot stronger. The practise of germanic paganism is considered racist in germany.Due to Hitlers propaganda. if you would walk in a german town with a HAIL ODIN shirt, everybody would think you are a racist. And Germanic Paganism is also used as a propaganda tool by the Neo-Nazis. Germany and Scandinavia are like Italy and Greece. Many Germanic Tribes came from Scandinavia(Norway, Danmark and Sweden). so there isnt a huge difference in the Ancient Cultures. Goths and Gepids, Teutons and Langobards all originated from scandinavia. Vikings are considered germanics by most. This whole Faith discussion, reminds me of the Indo-european discussion. Italics(Roman) and Germanics and Greeks all had a similar language and believe. The God DYEUZ is found in every Indo-european Culture (Greek-Italic-Illyrian-Germanic-Slavic). The Italics had big similarities to the Germanic Culture in terms of worship and burial. The Celts, were not in anyway related or similar to germanic Culture. Only later on when they shared a common border, both cultures adjusted a bit.

@Emperor Goblinus The difference between the USA and the Roman Empire in the subject Diversity, is the the USA is a so called RainBow nation, and its so diverse because of the Mass Immigration. While the Roman Empire was diverse beacuese the Romans Expanded and Conquered almost the whole known world. And Rome subjected the local conquered population as their citizens. Rome and Italica (the birthplace and heart and Blood of Rome) wasnt diverse at all. The slaves that rome made, were not shipped or send to Italica, the were slaved in their own teretorry,shaping and building it like the Romans wanted. the External provinces of Italica, was were the majoprity of slaves were kept, due to the simple reason that Italica was already build and the Conquered Provinces have not. Places like Greece or the middle east and north Africa, were already modernised and Structured. so very few of these conquered people were slaved. But the Celts and the newly conquered Celtic provinces were under developed, and there for the celtic slaves had to build it up. So Rome and Italica wasnt diverse at all.Only a small minority was not Italic in Rome and Italica. I dont know if anybody mentioned it or even noticed it, but in the USA Congress, there are To Paintings of the Roman Fasces and also in Cincinnati, Ohio., there is a statue of the Roman Consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus holding the Roman Fasces.

@Sextus Roscius I think their is a difference, whether civilians get killed during war and a person being executrd although he is innocent. both are tragic, but both are different. In Western Standards, every person is ENTITLED to a Fair Trial. In that trial, the STATE has to Prove the Person Guilty of his charges, the Person, does not have to prove his innocence. In the specific case of Stan T. Williams, their are a lot of gray zones. Were nobody can 100% prove that he was guilty. I know that he was the Co-Founder of the Crip Gangsters. And that the Crip Gangs took alot of lifes and terrorised many more. But, from what i have heard. Mr. Williams, was the main reason for thousands of people to stay away from gangs. he was nominated for the Noble Peace Price, etc. So the authorities should have checked his case further times. I am for Capital Punishment! But only if the person is Proven Guilty 100%. And also to scare of other Potential Criminals.

Yes, also here in Germany. They said that 5000 White Youths are runnig riot and beating up Lebanese people. All that, because of a Beach? is that correct? I just heard something about a Beach? Crazy! A couple of weeks ago there were racial Riots in France, were Muslim Youths were fighting against Police and Ran Riot for weeks.

The Most interesting part about Attila, is that, he grew up in Ravenna-Italy. Was welll educated and spoke Latin and Greek fluent. His best Friend was Aetius. These 2, were the Union that destroyed the german Burgundy kingdom. He was also married to a Roman at one point. Attila, is mentioned in many different European sources. In the German Nibelungenlied, he is King Etzel.

Mother Tongue: German Read and Write: English Small bits: French-Italian-Spanish. Suprised to see how many speak German. @Viggen Mit Zulu meinst du bestimmt dein

By walking! I dont know when the first settlers from Africa, came to europe. But The Cro Magnon, is the first, Euopean Homo sapiens. And his earliest appearence is 20,000 years ago. Why there was such a huge Concentration of Humans in the Black sea and Caspian sea region, i dont know. Propably due to Fertillity. Man, Ancient Rome is a long time back, and Aryans is much further back. And now you want to talk about Cro-Magnons. whats next Dinosaurs? But if you were reffering to the Afro-Japanese link, than thats different. The "africans" spread across the whole world, in form that is not like the modern Human. While they,(authors of the afro-japanese thing) claim that Modern Day Africans settled and are the ancestors of Japan and Korea. Heres the link http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/links_to_ja..._african_la.htm

The Funny thing is, that i think we have been agreeing on the same thing throughout this thread, but due to Missunderstandings, we have been spinning in circles. But trust me, i am trying my best in english, but its the best as it gets. Hope that atleast the Point of the content comes clear. As for INDO, i also dont believe in the "Total" description, but in most german refferences prior to WWII it was described as Ario-European. Due to the Nazi regime and its Aryan propaganda, the Aryan race as such has taken a negative image, and the Term was redone as Indo-European. All europeans and those of european blood in the new-world, are Aryans. I, as a white- christian- european, am Aryan. But due to the Third Reich, the term Aryan can be viewed as racist. Btw. You said english speaking folks, so i guess you are English??

No, i understand you, getting quite tired of this topic myself. Here are a few maps to where the Aryans came from. http://www.public.iastate.edu/~cfford/342indo-european.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IE_expansion.png The term INDO, was given later on, to describe the connection to the Vedics and the other Aryan tribes moving east. Others claim that INDO hasnt anything to do with India, but means Total. But if you belive that aryans came from India, than you have my blessings. And werent you the user that wrote that Aryans came from central Europe?

@Ursus I am very familiar with these theories. Because you disagree or misunderstand my posts, you still shouldnt get personal. I also think we are talking of 2 different things now. The theory that Aryans came from the region between the Black sea and the Caspian sea, North Iran. It than split, into the Vedic and other tribes moving east, and the rest moving north being the ancestors of the Indo-Euopeans(Germanics,Slavics,Greeks,Italics,Celtics)is true. I believe this, because it is proven. And i never dismissed that, that the Aryans are the ancestors of europe. The Indo-Europeans the direct followers of these Aryans, had the same God Dyeus (greek:Zeus,Latin:Diovis Pater(jupiter),Germanics:Tyr,Slavic:Div) That is all proven,(Dyeus was just an example). But what i thought we are discussing, is if the Vedics who were also aryans, have a realistic link between the Indo-Europeans or not. I dont thinks so. Because the split, had split them in every level. Especially religiously. Because of various facts, especially Anthropomorphism. If my other posts, have been misunderstood, than this post is a clear up. I am not an academic, i am a security guard working for T

Well, than i dont know why we argued in the first place, because you have stated yourself that the Vedics and italics(and the rest of the ancient-europeans) come from 2 different places. So what was the Point? I wrote the vedics from North-India because they had their golden age there.

@Pantagathus I dont think that what i wrote is false, and its all based on facts. The only thing that is Quetionable is if the Vedics originated from outside of India or not. That question has only speculated answers. So all of my post is based on facts. If you have other facts, than state them. And i am not talking about theories like the similarity of Chariot building or that Eire(ireland) is a link to Indo-Iranian Aryan or others of JP Mallory or Max M