Pertinax

The toxic principle in a "poisinous" plant is often the most effective medicinal component if administered in a correct dose , foxglove (Digitalis ) being the most straightforward example in this thread (being in daily use in so called "pharmacuetical " medicines as digoxin). Henbane likewise, though its principle active ingredient hycosine is replicated synthetically.

My apologies Maledict, the threads, (when amalgamated) always run chronologically- so the older posts pre-date recent debate.

Its a fair copt. ps: this might need translating from British to N American vernacular "It's a fair cop. (British & Australian, very informal) something that you say in order to admit that someone has caught you doing something wrong. It's a fair cop. I was driving way too fast".

Gentlemen we have had a thread on this topic previously, I will search it out and append these posts to it so you can see what has been discussed previously...please feel free continue here though until my search is complete. post scriptum: the change is effected! please scroll back from this post.

Ok this is serious arcane geek stuff , but I thought members might like to see how various predacious mushrooms snare and digest nematodes (worms). http://www.biological-research.com/philip-...0BRIC/index.htm Im working (at my real work) on parasitic actions and helminth activity in the human body , its nice to see a killer mushroom kicking nematode butt.Have a look at Mr Jacob's "traps" section!

Puzzling, so only a very small person could actually be eaten by a gopher? Unless they work as a heist team.

An aside on Aconite which we have implicated in Julio-Claudian intrigue; it is actually refered to as the "mother -in-law" poison in folk context, make of that what you will. Interestingly a very subtle assassin might be able to differentiate between the varieties of the plant and aim for a slow motion assassination, A.napellus (the most well known garden variant being the deadliest0, the disparity in strength inter- species is large.The only way to test the efficacy of the toxic principle was to measure a dose and administer to a small animal-a deadly dose to a rabbit would not normally kill a human , so incremental usage of aconitine could be slowly administerd.Given that the root contains only 0.3 to 1 percentum aconitine (yet is deadly ) it can be sen that the quantity required would be miniscule. If one burns the root the ash is 3 percentum aconitine. Symptoms of poisoning arenumbness of the tounge and mouth and a crawling sensation over the skin -the victim looses gross motor functions, goes clammy and suffers laboured breathing yet remains clear minded .The antidote is Digitalis as an emetic purge(the attempted assassination of Bond in Casino Royale was by Digitalis), which would induce vomiting but slow down the repiration to reduce the possibility of cardiac shock. Returning to the cyanide in rosaceae pips - dont eat too much stale marzipan! I have yet to find one, only references in other papers. That being said, I have another animal poison to mention... The infamous 'Spanish Fly' or cantharadine from the beetle Lytta vesicatoria. In small doses could be used as a sort of aphrodisiac (new vocab word of the day: Priapism) but can turn into a dangerous poison in higher doses. Ahem: In 1752 a Frenchman was prescribed 2 drams of cantharides for a fever and in the next two months bedded his wife at least 87 times. Another man with a similar prescription "knew his wife", as the Bible puts it, 40 times in one night. Here is the genus rationale:- "The term Cantharis was employed by the ancient Greek writers to designate many coleopterous insects or beetles. Linnasus gave the title to a genus not including the official blistering insect, placing the latter in the genus Meloe, which, however, has been since divided into several genera. Geoffrey made the Spanish fly (beetle) the prototype of a new genus, Cantharis, substituting Cincindela as the title of the Linnasan genus. Fabricius altered the arrangement of Geoffrey, and substituted Lytta for Cantharis as the generic name. The former was adopted by the London College, and at one time was in extensive use; but, the latter, having been restored by Latreille, is now universally employed. By this naturalist the vesicating insects were grouped in a small tribe, corresponding very nearly with the LinnAean genus Meloe, and distinguished by the title Cantharide, This tribe he divided into eleven genera, among which is Cantharis".

Can someone clarify the size of the gopher please?

Pelican update: if you recall GO posted an item about pelicans flying into cars and then staggering around in an intoxicated and dazed manner (San Diego area possibly?). The cause was the consumption of nudibranchs saturated with red algae -the birds were indeed "on a trip". AD will recall his unpleasant experience with cherries? For those of you unaware ,amagdalyin (laetrile, also called erroneously in my opinion vitamin B17) is concentrated in a number of seed pips cherries, peach , almond for example-if allowed to "go off " slightly they become a source of cyanide (though a fair amount (not telling !) is required to give an effective fatal dose especially if digested with a strongly alkaline medium such as -the flesh of cherries! Plenty of the Rosaceae genus have this hidden "quality".Given the widespread distribution of the genus, and the notable potency of Egyptian grown plants (in terms of concentration of chemical constituents) we should perhaps entertain a suspicion that the poison was known. Pantagathus, I am aware of the title but unable to get a copy here- is there a hypertext anywhere?

And a crazed gopher is still at large...

Excellent find, another red algae victim (remember the hallucinating pelicans?): http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...;blogid=19& http://museum.gov.ns.ca/poison/redtide.htm so the crafty animals abstract the toxins from the algae.

I have been keeping notes to try and produce a handy recipe that would be both beneficial to modern users , and whilst not attested , be understood by our Roman forbears. I think I have one such ready for the forthcoming Saturnalia, no part of it was unknown in Rome (though some ingredients would be for the rich alone) this mix would be both cleansing and pleasant . take 1 pint of maderia wine ( so we are talking sweet and rich hence adjust your choice to taste). 1 sprig of wormwood ( those bracing thujones!) 1 sprig rosemary (digestive ) 1 small bruised nutmeg 1 inch of fresh bruised ginger root ditto cinnamon bark ( very pricey in Ancient Rome) 12 large raisins place all the herbs in the wine , keep in the cool and dark for a week or two .Strain off the herbs,combine this medicated stock with another bottle of madeira -mixing thoroughly! This will settle a jaded stomach nicely if sipped from time to time. Done with discretion this should make a useful tonic, myself I will aim for a less sweet base and fewer raisins , whilst perhaps adding one (yes one) drop of frankincense. Reference acknowledgment : Hoffman "Holistic Herbal".

Interesting posts, thank you all. I was looking hard at the Mithraditic recipe to see if I could nail down any particularly active antidote or to discern the methodology of prevention: -to generalise I detect 1. an intention to cleanse the body very deeply and to make sure that the gut wall is not permeable (hence less susceptible to more direct poisoning ie: like counteracting modern gut aggresors of mercury, flourine, ibuprofen and cannabaciae): the hypericum, gum, storax(tolu balsam) and frankincence/myrrh would do very nicely as healing menstrum and antifungal agents . 2 Some other additives are to purge directly:the iris would be a potent poison in its own right , the carrot and rhubarb likewise would be emetic. A resistance to the Orris Root (iris) would build over time . 3.I detect also constituents designed to provoke heavy bile output , gentian foremost of course but the cinnamon would be very useful. 4. quite a bit of anti tumour activity , the saffron being the foremost. One thing for sure , the King had no intestinal parasites on this combo (either protozoal or helminths) hence he would have had a very robust digestion and an ability to ward off any low level poisoning with ease. and ps: a small blog entry for a not quite so drastic tonic: http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...;blogid=19& Io Saturnalia!

Hmm, figs off the menu again this week I see. :stretcher: More Betony in my wine this week then: http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1476 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext...Ahead%3D%231790

I am working on some notes regarding the use of poisons in Roman Society (and the Ancient World in general). I seem to have found a suggested "apex" for such activity during the Julio-Claudian time frame , with emphasis on vegetable poisons . henbane , datura , nightshade and aconite (monkshood). The halide salts of mercury and antimony were known as toxic vapours, but mineral and animal poisons seem to be rarely mentioned (save as to snake venom). http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=854 Canidia appears to be the most famous of female poisoners , using hemlock in honey as "weapon of choice".Claudius is suggested to have taken aconite in mushrooms as the cause of his death. THis post is to provoke members to mention any related references to the topic-I am especially keen to hear of references to the use of mineral poisons in antiquity. More information to follow when the dread Festal season is done! Here is Pliny in outre mode on the wild weasel (and the antidote to its venom)! http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext...Ahead%3D%232152 and again on honey tainted with aconite: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext...Ahead%3D%231357

It appears that Neanderthal man chose a warm location for his first home in Britain: Torquay:- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1965 vying therefore with one of Britain's most unusual inhabitants: http://www.fawltysite.net/

splendidly vulgar!

Aha , its a Situationalist Drama!

I must have this link! Is it me or is the Christian Festival achieving new heights of materialistic frenzy and absurdism?

If the divine Julius also had greaves on his leg he would have been a hard target to hit-in terms of exposed flesh : http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=950 heres a "target profile" without greaves, if an agressed formation holds steady you would have to search for an opening.

I did throw the javelin when younger,(considerably younger) and from that experience I suggest an accuracy within only 30 yards (for a javelin)so I agree with VTC on this . Having held a scutum I venture to suggest that the throwing action is seriously modified by the left arm and torso being prevented from full rotation, hence a flatter trajectory would be more comfortable-segmentata does not seriously impede torso rotation at all. Perhaps the context of the weapon as used in mass (and with multiple discharge) is a more important factor?

Welcome Traianus, in Britain we know your home as Santiago (and sometimes with the suffix diCompostella) so you were quite correct with your english. I hope you enjoy the Forum!

How appropriate then that we try to discuss history in all its aspects.

sing along here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuftPAl6Ypg