Pertinax

Osprey have a good title in the Fortress series-Romes Northern Frontier and the Oxford "Roman Britain" by Salway gives you a lot of detailed information, the maps show how very near Rome came to controlling the whole landmass( though not necessarily the peoples).

feel free to nominate "good/bad history" , "good/bad literature" and "good/bad contemporary media or fleshly indulgences"! -after all is this not a Roman Forum?

They wore gloves made from cabbage! and underpants . Seriously now:-in lead production slaves were used for the vile work of mining, and it was their various afflictions that were noted . Im looking for a piece I placed in another thread about writings on the subject, There is a contemporary quote showing that apart from the awful colour people went from constant exposure to it (Vitruvius), its role as a low level poison was known if only incompleteley understood . However as the restorative/chelation "therapy" ws intuitivley understood I suggest that perhaps the enslaved and the poor got a higher dosage-but given general life expectancy this may have been irrelevant to fertility given first age at conception. One thing I would like to add is this-if the theory is that Rome became "sterile" and imbecelic due to ingesting lead, the problem is that most other contemporary racial/ethnic competitors were open to exactly the same sources of poisoning as lead was widely used in food/drink preparation. The relatively low birth rate of the Empire may have contemporary parallels in Europe ( mentioned in Hora Postilliae) one overlooked reason might be the relative cost of child rearing in an "advanced" society, and the opportunity costs incurred by a cosmopolitan population,( I have no firm view on this , I merely conjecture). The most dangerous thing the Romans did with lead was to make sapa-sour wine boiled down in lead pans to make a sweetening agent (lead acetate syrup in effect), it is this product that is the key to the lead debate rather than the plumbing.

The same Jean Luc who captained the good ship NCC-1701D? vraiment eh certainment.

The water tastes better from lead-its softer and more palatable-ive drunk plenty as well! So perhaps you should ignore my posts! If you love cabbage you are redemed. The sequence (appears ) to be something like: eat fish or get sunlight for vit D , that fixes vit B12 from offal (pigs liver-no lack of that in Roman times) , drink water with magnesium in ( from limestone) and lots of cabbage to follow (b2 6 and 12 are responsible for "clean" cell replication in the gut wall ,hence absorption of nutrients and ejection of junk. Voila ! clean blood.Also any "antioxidants" vits A , C and E help- the Romans must have been stuffed with all three, the educated sought quality foods as a sign of status.

There is massive "scale" build up in pipework in S E England from the water drawn from the chalk strata -the build up is inoxerable despite heavy stream flow-I wasnt suggesting you were in error, I have pondered this question from all sorts of angles-I hope someone will wade in with additional arguments.The infertility implication doesnt make sense if you look at demographics in relation to disease . Hahahah when I first saw the title I jumped into the thread but I see a far more wise man on the subject has already led the charge. *stands aside* no ! no! wade in! I called your name to rally the Legion.

at last! ok -1. if your water is from carbiniferous limestone ,internal calcification of the pipework will put a layer of sealent around the inside of the pipe. This doesnt apply in hard water areas but.. 2. the main problem with lead is b12 deficiency leading to Iron deficiency -you can counteract this by drinking mineralised water -Aqua Sullis (Bath) so in hard water areas of Brittania-off you went to Bath-but for the reasonably wealthy Roman Bath was an Empire wide tourist/health spa destination 3 .one of the main detoxers of lead (and Cadmium-the much less obvious but deadlier metal associated with lead ) is cabbage . L'Methionine the active principle in cabbage is very effective in cleaning up the bloodstream-I use it on a daily basis for Homocysteine( amino precursor to a cardio incident) build up.The Romans ate cabbage till it came out of their ears and used it as a medicine. 4. The Romans were well aware of lead as a poisinous influence (Pliny). Ok imbecility and infertility are the result of chronic poisoning but item 1 is most pertinent.Against this we have use of lead for wine storage and preparation and other culinary vessels. Will that do for a start? Favonius where are you!

Thats good- as we all know the opponents were really American!

I have Suetonius read by Jacobii on order-that should be a great guilty pleasure.(salacious gossip read by cultured voice) Please nominate an "historical " film !

I think your interpretation is actually much more likely, one obvious rejoinder is that barley is freely available in this area and time-and from the many fragments ive looked at the last remark about braces is the most perrtinent , I havent seen any references to scandala at all (so far-but my eyes are getting very tired!).

Id wouldnt like to be stood alone on the slope at Mons Graupius , amongst the mists, with the howling Picts and Caledonii closing in.....

Completely irrelevant--Roman history is simply a guilty pleasure of mine. the best sort of pleasure!

This is excellent, I have never been associated with anything even remotley "cool" in my entire life.

"frumenti" is quoted (wheat surely) but spelt given as the substance. I am not a Latin Scholar , ill dig deeper. I think Mr. Dalby might be baiting you Pertinax... One of the primary latin words for spelt would elicit a bit of a chuckle from some of the more callow members of this forum... That just shows that wit and irony do not commend themselves to the typed word! The trap was so large I didnt see it!

George Orwell used to make a distinction between "good" literature ( say,perhaps Chaucer, Zola or Milton), distinguished by scholarly prose/poetry and of serious weight and satisfying to read; and good/bad literature-stuff you couldnt put down, but were well aware that it was flawed in some way, but notwitstanding that was an excellent read that could be enjoyed with an open heart . Mario Puzzo I suggest might be a modern example-seriously entertaining, I think Orwell suggested Dickens as his "storytelling" example We have had lots of "best of" "favourite" threads may I suggest an " actually I know I shouldnt but I really liked it" thread for books and films ( beer and other things are excluded). So guilty pleasures:- My nominations for the film category are : The Vikings -(apart from best music obviously) leering English (Australian) King , leering mad Viking (Ernest Borgnine), leering mad younger Viking (Douglas), brooding introverted worthy half Viking (Tony Curtis). and Excalibur , wonderful photography and lighting , blood spattered hackfest, deranged chuckling Merlin (Williamson) deranged Uther, nice but murderous Leondergrance (Jean Luc Picard) , tormented and startlingly bad haired King Arthur ( Nigel Terry) seriously nutso but shapely sorceress (Mirren). Book-Last Exit to Brooklyn is America actually a Martin Scorcese film on Lysurgic Acid? Enough you cry already.

The Sorrell drawing is very evocative-he hit some sort of psychological nail on the head with his representation.You are correct about English Heritage -they are even worse than the trust. Where their little kingdoms overlap the promote inertia and fail to realise that monuments fall down if lots of people walk all over them, so repairing is not an evil but a dire necessity.The report I mentioned was scathing-the place is apparently dropping apart and the wall should,in sections ,be cordoned off so emergency work can be done.

What word do they use for 'spelt', Pertinax? "frumenti" is quoted (wheat surely) but spelt given as the substance. I am not a Latin Scholar , ill dig deeper. and "cervesa" for beer quoted in the general info but I see "ceruesa" in the text translated as "celtic beer" does this make any sense to yourself or Pantagathus?