monkey

Just to keep you updated - I'm off to Italy in the new year to meet some people who are helping with research and look at some dead things and some pictures of dead things. Hurrah!

Hello all, have been away for a while as sadly my own little dog soldier is very sick and have been in France with her The paper is going well but slowly (have allocated myself 5 years - do you think that'll be enough?!) and am off to Italy in the new year to meet some contacts out there. My wonderful sister is currently draining Chichester records office for me! I can only answer the above post from my experience of modern dog soldiers. 1 - If we're talking dogs of Assyrian descent, and big dogs at that - they would have been more visual that aural and virtually impossible to stamp on by people as they stood waist high! Horses rarely trample dogs if they can help it as a dog can easily take out a ligament on its way down. http://www.gefsgp.net/guncel/kangal_fotosu.jpg Just an example. 2 - As regards dogs coping with the loss of a handler, dogs are trained for combat by more than one handler and respond to a command, not a person for that very reason. Thanks for your post though - get some sleep man! Jim, I really can't thank you enough for your continued support and am still keen to hear from anyone with info, sources or an opinion! Cheers Anna

Yes, thankyou Jim. Chuckle. They're actually sheild tags, not tags for the dogs. A hunting or guard dog would have been unlikely to wear anything that would make a sound against its collar or reflect light and startle prey which was being stalked. The search continues.....

9 December Gallery talk The Persian Empire: a model for Rome? ID S Moorhead ............................................................................................................................................................... Is coinciding with the exhibition Forgotten Empire. Looks good, just thought I'd let you know!

Good stuff, I need to get a size on that print. Good link - thanks! As an update I now have a very good mate truffling through the writings of Cassius Dio which have chucked up a couple of interesting paths to follow. Mainly about Hyenas so far. Ha ha! Am also investigating a nice little piece same wonderful mate sent me: I am still doing some grubbing, now perusing Theodor Mommsen's History of Rome - but there I can only find a reference to Roman occupying force using dogs to 'bait' the locals, hunting them down like beasts. Nice chaps, those Romans. If anyone can elaborate on this I appeal once again to your knowledge. I am off to chat with the guy who makes repro Canis pugnax war dog tags to find out why they had them if there weren't any war dogs.....

Waaaay ahead of you Jim, I'm waiting to hear back from about 18 different people - LONG! I can see where you're coming from, totally, you're right - I can't find a reliable source YET! That's the whole point of this exercise non? Just to clarify, I wasn't asking you personally to put the kibosh on it, am simply trying to gather information! Will post findings here as I.....well......find them! Anna

That's why I'm writing the paper! The use of dogs in war situations has always fascinated me and whilst it may take me some years I will find out! I agree that evidence is scant and some seems circumstantial, but this is the case with many things - hypothesising eventually leads somewhere. One cannot deny that there were dogs of some stature about in war settings (not necessarily the whole Ceasar vs Britain Mastiff thing which is most oft quoted) and there were some pretty massive dogs about in general. In the interests of this if anyone can tell me where I can find a bigger version of this I'd appreciate it: http://www.mustangmastiffs.com/webpage-graphics/moloser2.jpg thanks for all the info so far and keep it coming. As far as nay saying goes, it's all part of the forum - but if you can actually come up with any sources that say there were certainly NOT any war dogs (not modern, have enough of them ta) then I'd appreciate that too!

Cool, can I have a source on that last post please? Am writing a paper on Canis Pugnax so am really interested to hear (with sources if poss) any stories/reports you guys could come up with. As regards the Molosser Myth, I would also direct you to the excellent Col. David Hancock who has done much original research into most large breeds (just in the interest of a different point of view - I can never let one person clear something up for me, I'd rather be confused!) Many thanks for the article - it has me thinking..... I include a link to a segment of his writings here with thanks to Mr Kenny James: http://www.cane9corso.co.uk/start.php?type...nt&name=colonel

There are now 2 threads running this topic! I found this on a Corso forum and would like to share it with you, five pages of all the things an ancient Molosser would be getting up to, some great images. The sticks you will see the agitators holding are just for that - agitation - these dogs are in no way being harmed. As for the guy with the doormat on his arm.... http://www.apexcanecorso.com/Working1.htm Enjoy!

There are now 2 threads running this topic! I just found this on a Corso forum and would like to share it with you, five pages of all the things an ancient Molosser would be getting up to, some great images. The sticks you will see the agitators holding are just for that - agitation - these dogs are in no way being harmed. As for the guy with the doormat on his arm.... http://www.apexcanecorso.com/Working1.htm Enjoy!

You scored higher than 93% on social skill. Can someone tell my boss that?!

Roma also has a lovely cat sanctuary in one of its ruins doesn't it? I met a very nice cat at the Spanish steps last time i was there. I called it Dave.

Sorry to be boring, but there is a very very good reason why this idea has taken off. To show a dog it must be 'intact', should you come across a beast that is the very pinnacle of your breed in a rescue home or the newspaper but, damn, it's neutered. Add silicone nuts, show dog, win prizes, up fees (remember, some pedigrees fetch upwards of 1500 quid a pup) put a similar looking, worse quiality, non neutered dog to your bitch et voila! Very amusing indeed!

Huskys and Malamutes are probably the closest domestic (I say domestic but you can't really keep the damn things in the house) relations - the Czech wolf dog has a very vulpine face I think, we are very used to associating wolf hybrids from wider faced breeds, where as these are Alsatian which has the longer Wile E Coyote type snout. You han usually tell a breed which has a large proprtion of Wolf Genes by it's coat (long boring two tired oily explanation) and its inability to bark, only yip or howl - see Huskys, Malamutes etc. Which is another reason not to have them in the house!

We have been discussing these tags on the corso forums, they are very very beautiful.

The brits used a longer legged version of the Bulldog (of celt origin) for attacking legs, and large mastiff type breeds for major mauling and guard/hunt duties. There are also the obligatory wolfhound/lurcher breeds. The Romans were pretty fascinated by the molossers I believe and developed them into the Canis Pugnax, the closest version of which we have today being the Cane Corso (or Sicilian mastiff) and the Neopolitan Mastiff. When they were retuned to Rome they were set upon the fiercer animals in sport combat, and the same in the UK. If I'm not entirely mistaken Canis pugnax and their owner/trainers were issued with the original 'dog tags' which could help pair them up/identify them after battle. I think most Mollossers were issued with large protruding spiked collars to assist with goring cavalry and in guard situation to prevent attacks on the throat. I own a Cane corso and would recomend checking out cane xi cane corso for a nice comparison shot of an engraving of a Roman and his Canis Pugnax and a very large corso called Franco. Hope this helps. This is a repeat of my post in the other thread where I cover this topic in more depth. As for dogs not being useful in battle, or being skittish, issuing them with tags to be reunited after battle would then have been a moot point no? If the Romans could train an army to the levels that they did they could certainly manage a few Molossers! Dogs have been used in much more recent combat and I think if they can be trained to cope with the sound of Mortars and modern warfare - even to the point where they were sent off with bombs strapped to their backs to destroy tanks (and this would not just be one but a series of animals) then the argument that they would have panicked in an ancient war setting seems laughable. Cane Corsi and Neopolitan Mastiffs are also famed for their extraordinary loyalty AND a pain threshold not witnessed in any other breed. I include two links for fun: 1 - what would YOU do if you saw these coming towards you? Many thanks to Nancy Kroper. http://www.canecorsonancy.be/photogallery/actiondogs.htm 2 - Yes, they do do this whilst there are distractions going on....that's the point! Many thanks to Erik Storm http://groups.msn.com/colossal/shoebox.msn...Photo&PhotoID=2 And yes, I CAN go on about this for hours!

I'm Britains youngest female strip club Dj..... Well? Someone has to be!

Just harking back to Wolves, if you check out this link: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/czechoslovakianwolfdogphotos.htm You'll see something very similar to what I would imagine Romans would have done with the Wolf, Wolves are obviously not good pets (tend to eat/massacre everything in sight) so it would make sense to 'water them down' a bit whilst retaining that fearsome look. However, were they not more inclined to hunt them? Hence the need for molossers. The dogs shown here are again a very modern resurrection, 1958 if I'm correct, banned in the UK (damn!) and not for the inexperienced, but a magnificent animal I think you'll agree.

If anyone is still interested in this I've done a little piece on the Canis Pugnax and it's modern equivalents in the other war dogs thread. Many thanks

Hello again, Thankyou very much for the nice comments about the Cane Corso. Herding/herd guards are generally more 'wooly' for some reason and the closest one I can think of is what is now called the Spanish mastiff (not a mastiff at all but there you go) these have the power and speed of the masiff but are generally considered more hardy. Corso's, whilst still used for herding in some parts of Sicily, were more for coursing medium sized game. There is a guy in the states who sells reprodution Canis Pugnax tags, they are very beautiful and hint at more of a partnership of equals than an animal that was regarded simply as a service dog. Just a bit of trivia, the Cane Corso and Neopolitan mastiff are renowned for their extraordinarily high pain thresholds. Could this be a genetic throw back to the Canis pugnax where only the toughest would survive? The point made about the British Bulldog is correct, they have now been very successfully revived and are much healthier for it! You can find them online if you search under 'victorian bulldog'. The american bulldog is another fine example of the longer legged/less ridiculous headed version of the animal.

The brits used a longer legged version of the Bulldog (of celt origin) for attacking legs, and large mastiff type breeds for major mauling and guard/hunt duties. The Romans were pretty fascinated by these I believe and developed them into the Canis Pugnax, the closest version of which we have today being the Cane Corso (or Sicilian mastiff) and the Neopolitan Mastiff. When they were retuned to Rome they were set upon the fiercer animals in sport combat, and the same in the UK. If I'm not entirely mistaken Canis pugnax and their owner/trainers were issued with the original 'dog tags' which could help pair them up/identify them after battle. I think most Mollossers were issued with large protruding spiked collars to assist with goring cavalry. I own a Cane corso and would recomend checking out cane xi cane corso for a nice comparison shot of an engraving of a Roman and his Canis Pugnax and a very large corso called Franco. Hope this helps.