Perseverantius

Well, for some people Christianity is the source of all the world's woes and the classical age was set, forever idyllic and unchanging until the monks came and destroyed everything.

Good stuff, PP Revisionism has to be spotted and called what it is. Well played.

One more thing: I think the state adoption of Christianity was far more damaging to Christianity than to the culture; indeed, as I've said, Christianity revivified a moribund culture and received nothing but the stifling patronage of 'The Equal to the Apostles" (One of Constantine's titles) in return. A bad deal for the faith.

Societies usually change due to external forces incapable of assmiliation without creation of a new paradigm and frankly, that's what happened here. I would submit that the Roman political ideal was crumbling before Christianity appeared and that it's eventual utter breakdown half a millennium later had more to do with it's exposure to a far more 'virile' and utterly different agent in that of the Germanic tribes who invaded and took her over than with it's eventual Christianization. Indeed, it can be argued that it was Christianity which represented Romanitas at the time of the invasions and which eventually succeeded in assimilating the barbarians, effectively Romanizing them. This is true of the west more specifically than the east which remained identifiably Roman for quite a bit longer. And this supports my point. The eastern empire remained identifiably and comfortably Roman as well as Christian both well into the second millennium of the common era. As for the "casualties of Chritianity's expansion". Have you not read where Pompey raided the temple in Jerusalem, taking all the plate and melting it down to pay his legions? Or, of Caesar's brutal suppression of the druidic culture in Gaul? Or Lucullus' razing of Tigranocertes and the virtual extinction of Armenian culture there? The utter destruction of weaker cultures, with their physical expressions by stronger ones is an historical commonplace, without reference to creed. From this I would conclude that while marks of a culture are often lost in processes like these, it cannot be denied; the ideals the things represented are not always lost. In the case of the classical ideals you mentioned though their marks were lost, the ideals these marks were the expression of sprang again into full flower in the renaissance, eventually finding their place within (rather than opposed to) a distinctly Christian worldview. The struggle was enormous, but it was successful. I hope you can understand this. I am not an academic and suffer from muddle-headedness and poor self-expression as from a disease.

Rubbish, the Roman State began declining when Augustus became Princeps. It was he, as great and necessary as he was, who opened the door for all the subsequent problems. Remember, Rome did not embrace Christianity until the 4th Century. Tiberius, Nero and Caligula were all pagans at the helm of a pagan state. If you're going to point to anyone as the harbinger of Rome's 'downfall' it would be these tyrannical jokers.

And then there's the idea that Rome never really fell but coopted Christianity and that the very world we live in, with it's linear understanding of cause and effect, our political systems, our general societal self-consciousness is a natural outgrowth of Romanitas. So, Rome is us. Rome is the West. It's an idea that has never fallen. But if we're talking about the fall of the city of Rome from an identifiable and taxonomically successive Roman political origin then it happened in 402 AD when Honorius fled to Ravenna and was made complete when he left there in 476 leaving the city to the Bishop. Which Bishop, by the way, kept all the trappings of Roman government and political division assuming as well the ancient Roman religious title "Pontifex Maximus". And when the Goths took it, they didn't exactly impose Gothic political structures on it, rather, they became Roman.

The Tuatha de Danaan... heh No one is really sure who was there when the Celts got there or even exactly when they got there but a lot of paleo-anthropologists believe the Picts were indigenous. From this it is often concluded that the islands, at the time the Celts got there were populated by a people who tattooed themselves and colored themselves blue with woad. They were eventually beaten back into the highlands of Scotland where they continued to live until the time of the later emperors and the Roman occupation. It's guessed that they were, eventually absorbed into the larger genetic pool.

PP, Excellent articles covering the bases very nicely. I am a Christian and would add that there is a segment of (usually Protestant) Christianity which believes that the identification under Constantine of Christianity as a religione licita and it's subsequent adoption by the government to the eventual exclusion of others effectively emasculated it; making it a department of state and conversion therefore more a matter of political and social ambition than an expression of actual metanoia. I'll admit to being inclined to this view though I am by no means convinced.

Complete take over of the government by Catiline due to the absence of Caesarian support for Cicero. Pompei would have marched on Rome and been declared consul for life and instead of Caesars we'd be discussing Magnuses.

PM, Not even a whiff for poor Lucullus in your list? He who drove Mithridates into Armenia and then destroyed King Tigranes and razed Tigranocertes? For the record though, I think it's a very good list and I agree substantially with it. Pompey had ability and he was popular with his legions for a number of reasons. He was a very successful general though I am sure he wasn't the tactician Caesar or S. Africanus were.

I say it "die-oh-KLEE-shun" but it was probably pronounced either "Dee-oh-KLEH-tyahn" or "Dee-oh-KLEH-tsyahn". Or so I have been told

Ave omnes! American Male, Age 40, Married two kids, Michigan USA. Ever since I read McCullough's "Masters of Rome" series, I've been fascinated by the Romans. The recent release of the HBO program has reinvigorated my interest. I look forward to learning and sharing with you all. Vale