Onasander

I don't think it's sloppy, just didn't develop in the direction we currently hold as the standard. Many important works already decayed by this point. Libraries were dying off, be it Pagan or Christian, or even philosophical. I researched the library of Alexandria issues a while back, my best conclusion was the lost of Alexandria.... Be it under Caesar, Christians or Muslims didn't much matter.... The idea of a central repository did exist, but branch libraries never really took off, and far too often books and visiting scholars petitioning access to said books had to go through someone landed and rich enough to afford them, and apparently just saw them as ornaments. So, here, we are dealing with John Malalas a limited library. The idea of a universal history is a good one, but he had to deal with just what was available. I remember reading he was a monastic.... I know Greek Orthodox monastics, they are not encouraged to go shopping or even head out on strolls willy nilly. He likely had a limited selection, and made the best use of it.... Much like modern historians.... Just we have a larger pool.... What excites me about Malalas is he doesn't screw around in presenting facts, it's a composite.... Of other works. This makes him precious in allowing us to trace his ideas. If we can say This and That part of his text comes from so and so, everything else comes from someone else, giving us a much better chance to figure out just who. I don't detect much opinion or emotion in him. But yeah, I wouldn't use him as the primary source for writing a history book. Eusebius of Caesaria proved to be remarkably accurate in Phonecian mythography, I was able to find sharp parallels in early Zhou creation myths, Mencius even echoes portions. Stuff you wouldn't expect, but it's there plain as day. Ctesias was always lambasted over Sardanapullas, but it closely matches to a very, very high degree King Zhou of Shang.... He gathered it from studying the Persian Archives. We forget though they differ, they did have strengths as historians as well. Many practiced honestly in their own eyes, a big effort on my part is to find that perspective. We can appropriate the disenfranchised facts if they prove valid. I just don't chop everything off due to a small difficulty. It becomes a reason to peer into the crux of the matter.

I took the weekend off from this. I wrote out the basic chronology of the emperor list, and filled it in with known emperors. Caracalla us technically a third century emperor too, but in a sense your right. Gordian III reign is closer to Valerians supposed reign of six years. The pattern you noted, his ignorance of 3rd century emperors, nitpicked at me, as I'm searching for a source John Malalas would use. Best guess is Lactantius "On The Persecution of the Christians". He was also a philosopher, which I didn't know, and a major expounder of the modern concept of the end times, and a heretic to boot. His list I saw for the emperor list DOES NOT INCLUDE the names of the missing emperors either, according to the list I just scanned from a questionable artical. So.... It's might be a crucial source.

Perhaps. The emperor list is larger than this. Found a few guys who declared themselves emperors actually, that aren't on the official emperor list, one actually was from Antioch and defected to Shapur before the second war, the second was a priest of some kind. And I want to narrow down just who is his source. When I see stuff get jumbled up, I want to figure out the pattern. This will involve a map and timeline on my end before I really get what is going on. Dura-Europa. I'm just surprised the Romans held Egypt, literally everything around Egypt went to hell. Also the fact the Romans had to keep pulling troops from Europe for this war.... Yet one it looks like had the common sense not to. The competition between sources really have me tingling. I read one guy had crossed the mountains snowshoeing. I'm wondering if the reason the saint's lives is so jumbled up from how we currently read them is du to a pagan chronographer trying to make sense of them? The one Eusebius was blasting.

I'm wrong, his ashes were brought to Rome. It's a common practice during the divination of a emperor to cremate him. A wax effigy would be prepared at Rome. Furthermore, it was after this that Shapur took Antioch... What I find interesting is this is where everything source wise starts going everywhere.... Both in Africa and Iraq. May suggest factionalism in the rather autonomous chronographers. This can be good for us. Oh.... Shapur's army broke into three, only one arm hit Antioch. I don't know who commanded it.

His Cenotaph is very neat Palmyra. I don't actually know where the battle that they launched against Shapur I is in relation during his booty laiden retreat from Antioch (likely with a concussion, if not cracked skull).

Decius was the first Roman Emperor to die in battle against a foreign enemy. [12] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decius Not so sure. I'm wondering if the Cyprian Plague was dragged around by fleeing Christians and pursuing Pogroms? It seems to of erupted in North Africa at the same time as the edicts to persecute arrived. It's odd this territory converted to Christianity so early (usually said Armenia converted to Christianity first). You had northeast-southwest trade routes militarized, and to the south trader kingdoms militarised. Romans started losing funding, pulled troops from German and Gothic fronts for Iraq. Empire started puttering, barbarians moved in.

I was stationed not to far from where this battle supposedly took place. Okay, we are drifting back slowly into my knowledge base now: During Trajan's time, around 116 AD, the Roman general Lucius Quietus sacked Edessa and put an end to Osrhoene's independence. After the war with Parthians under Marcus Aurelius, forts were built and a Roman garrison was stationed in Nisibis. Osrhoene attempted to throw off the Roman yoke, however in 216, its king Abgar IX[clarification needed] was imprisoned and exiled to Rome and the region became a Roman province. In the period from Trajan's conquest (116) to 216, Christianity began to spread in Edessa. Abgar IX (179-186 AD) was the first Christian King of Edessa. It is believed that the Gospel of Thomas emanated from Edessa around 140 AD. Prominent early Christian figures have lived in and emerged from this region such as Tatian the Assyrian who came to Edessa from Hadiab (Adiabene). He made a trip to Rome and returned to Edessa around 172-173. He had controversial opinions, seceded from the Church, denounced marriage as defilement and maintained that the flesh of Christ was imaginary. He composed Diatessaron or "harmony of the Gospels"(Ewangelion da-mhalte) in Syriac, which contained eclectic ideas from Jewish-Christian and dualistic traditions. This became the Gospel par excellence of Syriac-speaking Christianity until in the 5th century Rabbula, bishop of Edessa, suppressed it and substituted a revision of the Old Syriac Canonical Gospels (Ewangelion da-mfarshe).[15] After this, Edessa was again brought under Roman control by Decius and it was made a center of Roman operations against the Persian Sassanids. Amru, possibly a descendant of Abgar, is mentioned as king in the Paikuli inscription, recording the victory of Narseh in the Sassanid civil war of 293. Historians identify this Amru as Amru ibn Adi, the fourth king of the Lakhmid dynasty which was at that time still based in Harran, not yet moved to Hirah in Babylonia.[16] Many centuries later, Dagalaiphus and Secundinus duke of Osrhoene, accompanied Julian in his war against the Sassanid king Shapur II in the 4th century.[17] In his writings Pliny refers to the natives of Osroene and Commagene as Arabs and the region as Arabia.[18] According to Pliny, a nomadic Arab tribe called Orrhoei occupied Edessa about 130 BC.[19] Orrhoei founded a small state ruled by their chieftains with the title of kings and the district was called after them Orrhoene. This name eventually changed into Osroene, in assimilation to the Parthian name Osroes or Chosroes (Khosrau).[20] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osroene He is buried there in a Cenotaph? It was turned into a launching point for operations under Decius?

On the contrary, the contemporary and later Roman sources claim that the Roman expedition was entirely or partially successful but the emperor was murdered after a plot by Philip the Arab.[7] However, some scholars think that the Sassanid victory must not be invented and reject Philip's plot as the ultimate reason of Gordian's murder. Even if that is true, it isn't likely that Gordian died in the battlefield, as Shapur's inscription claims.[3][8] Even more, some sources mention a cenotaph of the murdered emperor at Zaita, near Circesium of Osroene (some 400 km north of Misiche).[9][10] The confusion of the sources about the expedition and the assassination of the emperor makes it more possible that, after the defeat, Roman army was frustrated enough to get rid of the teenage emperor.[3] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Misiche

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_III Persians think they killed him at The Battle of Misiche, Romans just assumed Philip the Arab offed him off upriver at Zaitha. He could of been made into a purse. He did fight Shapur I.

I better understand that 200 years now. I'm gonna need to know what legion, where they were based out of, and background on his gens. It may be that generals were considered more autonomous by ancient historians in this era, and were credited or discredited by them, but later generations with a more centralized, imperial outlook just assumed it was the emperors with similar names. After all, that's why Christians were persecuted, not honouring the emperor? The cult of the emperor may of dismally failed in achieving worship, but it does seem to of won the renown it demanded even by Christians in wholly christian eras. I never could quite grasp how Christians came to fanatically accept the emperors as they later did. So.... Philostorgius wrote a Adrian church history, Photius wrote yet another epitome, this time on him. It's recorded here: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/philostorgius.htm There is a more modern translation of Philostorgius by Philip R. Amidon, it takes into account works like Artemii Passio, that holds fragments of his unedited work. This history has popped up in my looking around, so likely holds some relation.

Can you better explain that 200 years before part, I'm not processing it. ----- In regards to Bruttius, he has a wiki under the name 'Caius Bruttius Praesens'. I lost the link, it's written that way in my notebook. The Brutti family has a very long geneology: https://books.google.com/books?id=uZqQjkb07g8C&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&ots=qRweij52JH&focus=viewport&dq=bruttius+roman&output=html_text This geneology contradicts the end assumption of the note of the author here in thus fantastically overpriced history book: https://books.google.com/books?id=U38fAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA593&lpg=PA593&ots=uxDt2-gCQb&focus=viewport&dq=bruttius+roman&output=html_text Doesn't seem to be the coincidence he thinks it is, now does it? Issue arises however, it could be ANY of those Bruttius in that very long genealogy who wrote this. I'll have to scoure through everything for a while, I'm gonna have to find a pattern in Malalas till this guy starts emerging from other contributors. My head hurts, I'm likely messing up the names or centuries of certain emperors, so if anyone is criticing this in the far future, I did my research on breaks at work. I haven't gotten a solid timeline yet to check linearity yet.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavia_Domitilla_%28saint%29 This relates to the notice I made in general about females converting first, and it gets close to the chronology, I found it while researching Bruttius, the guy I noted in the post above (different spelling). I'm surprised, it's said Bruttius was a chronicler equal to Suetonius. It's also said he is a pagan who wrote on Christianity. https://books.google.com/books?id=8kKGT2bR9BcC&pg=PA198&lpg=PA200&ots=MIQTVyUnXn&focus=viewport&dq=bruttius+christian&output=html_text

The only full English translation of this text is via Australian Catholic University, currently out of print, but a single used one is $150 on Amazon.com. Or read it on scribnotes I'm looking over his version of Alexander the Great. http://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B0006EPLZO/R2I3KF4SEIW0EZ/ref=mw_dp_cr?cursor=1&qid=1423767428&sort=rd&sr=8-1 Found this from looking at the very beginning. I gotta look up Arrian, I don't recall this. I'm looking for all the physical descriptions right now, my gut says Theophrastus. Oh.... https://books.google.com/books?id=U38fAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=bottios+alexander&source=bl&ots=uxDt2ZiyX4&sig=lxRcySkB1ccPY3GQyz0dyDRH0TA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bSXdVK_YCIzIsQT8zoHgBA&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAg Bottios. He is mentioned in the Alexander section I'm reading, but also apparently our section too. Other Christians note him as well. Decius is close to our chronology. So we have a name.

Didn't the Romans trade in Gold, Persians Silver? If Shaphur invaded but could not hold..... All the traders off loading in Arabia for the march up Mecca to Palmara would off suddenly been cut off. Likewise in Persia going to Antioch. Shaphur would of lost his tax revenue fast, Arabia be pissed for the same reasons, Palmara would be driven to side with whoever could most quickly end the conflict so trade could resume. They gained a lot of territory in the process. Both the leather purse and molted gold story suggest money as a culprit from the Persian angle.

St. Babylas did make him stand with the penitants.... According to wiki at least. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Arab Zenobia's Husband: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odaenathus It shows the difficulty of asserting the beginning of his reign in relation to Philip the Arab. This is important. However, Israel and Turkey are involved in good roman era archeology, this may differ now. He gained his citizenship as a Roman during the several dynasty. Philip the Arab died in Verona, Italy trying to stop Decius. Verona is right next to Milan, if that is a possible correlation. Let's hold off on that investigation for a while. I'm looking for a name that links the two guys together, or shows Philip and the dux are not related. This is a quote: At first, it seems, Odaenathus attempted to propitiate the Persian monarch Shapur I; but when his gifts were contemptuously rejected (Petr. Patricius, 10) he decided to throw in his lot with the cause of Rome. The neutrality which had made Palmyra's fortune was abandoned for an active military policy which, while it added to Odaenathus's fame, in a short time brought his native city to its ruin. He fell upon the victorious Persians returning home after the sack of Antioch, and before they could cross the Euphrates inflicted upon them a considerable defeat. Then, when two usurping emperors were proclaimed in the East (261), Odaenathus took the side of Gallienus the son and successor of Valerian, attacked and put to death the usurper Quietus at Emesa (modern Homs) and was rewarded for his loyalty by the grant of an exceptional position (262). He may have assumed the title of king before; but he now became totius Orientis imperator, not indeed joint-ruler, nor Augustus, but independent lieutenant of the emperor for the East. ---- I'm interested in what caused that retreat. Antioch was worth more in a treaty negotiation than a mere raid for booty. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenagino_Probus Think I found it. This link above. There was a emperor listed in that Malalas link you provided by this name. It right smack up against Zenobia and her husband's reign. The article claims he was confused with the Roman emperor of that name in many sources. He apparently was a very able commander, fought the Goths Navy, and ventured to Siwa to fight nomads. His territory was in the south. I haven't a clue how you can write someone choose a honorable suicide when surrounded. Questions arise about the legitimacy of the transmission of such a story.... After all, who is telling it? So it could of been him who was tortured. He would likely of had a role in winning over and keeping Palmara on the Roman side. But then again, perhaps not.

I was looking over the kings list, and noticed Alexander Severus. I chose not to reply for a while to this thread because I wanted to give my brain time to reorganize around Philip the Arab prior to saying any more. Only info I could remember is from long ago.... If I recall, he 'may' of had a Christian wife. I also recall him heading off to Rome to get approved by the Senate. He is one of those guys who operate in a cognitive void to me. However..... Zenobia kept popping up in my head. I couldn't quite figure out why, as I knew she came later (Marcus Aurelius). I woke up early this morning, thinking about it. Her husband was considered a Oriental Dux. His reign, does potentially overlap Philip the Arabs. However, this part surrealistic, part lucid rest and dreaming method isn't replicable, no good history making. I'm going to be researching your idea here soon. Alexander Severus and his Mother was heavily influenced by Origen. If I recalled correctly, that it was 'possibly' Philip the Arabs wife who was Christian, and he had this run in as you said, and Constantine's Mother St. Catherine was so active with her 'Archeology' in the region, it could suggest a intentional culture in the church of that time to intentionally illicit female aristocratic interest and support, much like the Baha'i do now. Even one of Mohammed's wives was a Christian. Several centuries here.... but could suggest the Christianization process was more feminine oriented in the upper classes of society at the time. I spent so much time resting on this I'll need a little more to figure out just what the relevancy is to the Malalas fragment, I feel a tad bit disoriented. Anyone feel free to jump in here.

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-31433695 Looks like Modi had more common sense than Caesar. His cult of personality has gotten particularly annoying, I keep hearing from Indians ecstatic about how well dressed he is, and they treat him like he is a Bollywood Idol. Truth is, he looks like he is always wearing a life preserver. His idol clearly captures this. I don't know how dress style = mandate to govern.

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-31367573 What more evidence do you need, it's clogged up with fat and butt wipes. There is something very wrong with your diet. You need more fiber in your diets. Eat leaner meats. I don't think however working out will fix this issue however.

I'm dealing with a tiny fragment of his text, so won't say definitively anything.... But it showed multiple sources. It was highly condensed, methodological, unlikely to embellish. So why he would lie in some places and tell truth in others confuses me, especially if he was a monastic as I've read. I believe in methodology in history, but am flexible in terms of methodology, as long as peers can criticize it. My first complaint against myself would be, only reading a little of Malalas. I'd want more access to his work. Right now, we have multiple sources mentioned in the section under discussion, and our data set is unexpectedly large, and yet nebulous. I can't find much research accessible on this very issue. So.... Right now, my recommendation is to build a Matrix, with every source on the left with it's own column horizontal, with 'kinds of facts' stretching left to right on top, going down vertically. Put whatever characteristic in you care for, and when they line up, check the box. I recommend also scanning for blantant falsehoods connected to kinds of facts too.... This can help identify the character and design of a faulty source Malalas used but we now know is crap. Likewise, we can begin isolating good fragments from excellent authors. We might recover fragments from a few ancient historians via this method. If you ever get to the point of isolating the church histories in this text from what survives, I can get you hooked up with Catholic and Greek Orthodox Seminaries, and perhaps in the future The Church of the East. They would be the major surviving players with stakes involved in this today, with eager theologians, translators and historians. I think they would love the debate, it could spawn a series of books. And I wasn't talking about Philip the Arab. Your smarter than me, you made that connection. I meant someone else, I had no clue Philip was made to attend school. I think your intellectually well equipped for this text. I just developed my own methodology over the years in studying philosophy in tackling information. I'm not trained like the others here. At this point, I'd be interested in the dialectic of them weighing in and ripping up this advance, as my approach to reading texts doesn't inherently invalidate other academic methods. I'm just sicked by constantly seeing historians warn against certain texts, when I can crack them open and instantly see parallels to another text no one noticed before. It usually stems from bad historical practices, and too much insulation from people who can conflict and dispute your position and cultural acceptance of technique. I go out of my way to track such people down. For some reason, I translated in my head unconsciously Valerian as Numerian. I made the connection without even consciously noting it. You noting I noted it caused me to pause. I think it would be worth reading IndianSmith's fictional chapter here, it has some info I didn't know about that he clearly does, about the pouring of melted gold down someone's throat. I think he be a obvious person to ask here about a varient in the Valerian story: http://www.unrv.com/forum/topic/18042-sample-chapter-from-my-roman-historical-novel/#entry127550

http://www.openculture.com/2011/11/how_many_us_marines_could_bring_down_the_roman_empire.html Apparently warner brothers bought the movie rights to this.... Anyway, obviously the Marines, IF they play it smart, and seize a port then a Island. They don't need 50 cals, just the ability to make simple muskets, and they would have basic knowledge of how a blast furnace works, old fashion gun powder, and advanced medical knowledge, such as sterilization and pasteurization, and penicillin. Also far more advanced tactics, marines on a island can penetrate any ancient coast at will, and withdrawal. Plus, they already know what Rome can do at it's best. It's a country full of mountain passes and fortified positions. Easy to breach a city defenses. Wait till the romans discover medieval knights with indirect fire support. If they can make even very basic shells and powder (very basic) they can effectively last forever. Not saying the marines will maintain the vehicles, but their awesome fortified positions.... Very heavy, but mobile if pulled. Great battlefield command vehicle, radios inside, FAST unseen communication. Notbeasy, but they would eventually figure out how to make grenades. Heliographs. Iron ships. Cannon. Plus, one of the Marines are bound to declare himself the son of Zeus, and declare himself emperor to end the retarded war. If that doesn't work, the Germans or the Persians could make excellent allies if you agree to split the empire with them. Begin modernizing strong points once you get your part, send renaissance units against them afterwards.... and work on making gasoline and steam powered engines.

Yeah.... The Greek word dimoiriaiors means the two/twins of something, we can't find the exact meaning, which is odd as half of Byzantium is recorded here. The translator was using Greek. I'm struggling with Malalas Charioteering records, he said Numerius' Brother supported the Greens. I could care less about this, as I just don't care about sports period, but it was a fact that may be referenced under my theory that Malalas was actually writing about Diocletian. Diocletian added two teams to the game, the Purple and the Golds, but according to Google, they died off soon after he died off. I also found Diocletian built a chariot racing hippodrome somewhere (don't know where). This wouldn't discount him being a fanatic Green supporter, as he obviously liked the game before he added teams. I just don't know where this came from, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Malalas even. It would suggest to me he had a history of chariot racing before him. It ironically may have non-antiochian chronology information that would contradict and explain nuances in his other claims. I just know, literally nothing about chariot racing history. I wouldn't know what sources to reach for. But it may be a important key to figuring out who is who.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapur_I Shapur's death contradicts the grand authority recorded in wikipedia. It says he died of illness, whereas Malalas said slingshot to the head. It appears he took this story from: Domninus the Wise Chronographer So it's a conflict of his sources to ours. Shapur is known via Roman and non Roman writers. Malalas also notes Philostratus and Dominius having different accounts. This is just from the very beginning of the link you provided. The editor of this text assumes he died in Milan, but the name isn't Milan, it's Mizoulanon. Numerian is indeed correctly after his father, but the chronology is off.... Carcalla and Valerian had a few emperors between them, including a Christian one (that christian bias) who is mysteriously not mentioned. His brother did not reign for two years after him. However, he mentions Cosmos and Damien being Martyred, which is indeed correct in terms of time frame.... Under Diocletian. Looks like the sources he relied on for an official emperor list was wrong, but the sequencing of the dates was correct. So, if this pattern holds, I would hold the names of emperors in question, and would date it off the saints, and reverse engineer that order. Likewise in the case of Shaphur being killed, I dunno. I do know there wasn't a single Persian king in this era, they shared power. This concept of shared power via multiple leaders wasnt unknown in even the roman world, but I doubt the average Roman historian grasped this parallel. I would have to scrutinize the text much more to figure out if this pattern holds, as well as comparing descriptions of other known emperors to Malalas text to narror down with a higher degree of certainty which emperors he was actually talking about. He is clearly making use of a variety of sources here, so it's hard to say which facts fit which individual when a name is off, but we can't toss the facts aside either, as they were colliated from somewhere.... some work that sat in front of him. So we gotta look at context. {It just occurred to me the Chronology Malalas was using went via who was known/accepted as Emperor then. It can explain mistaking Shapur for a brother of his, as well as thinking Numerians brother was emperor for two years. The chronographer he used recognized Numerous died (not correctly), but from the city of Antioch's perspective, the last remaining legitimate Caesar was still in the West... Aper and Diocletian wouldn't be on the radar for some time.... Meanwhile the Chronographer would list the passing of daily life in Antioch. Army marched West, fought and took Rome, and then official dispatches had to work back to Antioch. This could take a while, and it wouldnt necessarily be Diocletian, as we would expect, that the average person thought was in charge. By using thus chronology, Malalas likely just did the math. 2 year gap before everyone decided he was no longer Emperor.}

Is it possible? Yes. It could also be Aper just sucked at lying. It's said his father Emperor Carus died by a strike of lightening (????), his Army autonomously decided it really wanted to go West.... Aper got sidelined.... and the stubbornly surviving brother Carinus far away in the west lived, fought, got theDamnatio Memoriae against him, effectively confusing US, and just US (thanks alot buttheads). Only thing remembered about him is another implausible death, but it was quite demeaning.... He was assassinated by a tribunes wife he was having an affair with. Is it possible these guys got mixed up? Numeran ruled until 284 Valerian 260 Numeran was successful in his Persian campaign. Valerian.... well, not so successful. I'm a little confused actually now. I'll have to look over Malalas again, you seem to be aware of a confusing point I'm not seeing (quite possible).

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/demolitions-reveal-ancient-roman-theater-in-aegean-town-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=68118&NewsCatID=375 Many Greeks here are from Smyrna (Izmir in particular) and Chios, just told one, it's apparently big news. I was asked which professor did the excavations.... apparently they are known by name here in West Virginia! I don't know the answer of course.

As soon as I saw this picture of his statue, I knew I had seen him before: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Daza01_pushkin.jpg/640px-Daza01_pushkin.jpg http://images.tvrage.com/cguide/51/2408.jpg The two guys are nearly identical in looks, but also in behavior. I think this was done on purpose. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossu_Rabban http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximinus_II