Northern Neil

I say good luck to them. As I am an agnostic verging on the atheistic, I don't see why their religion should be any less valid than any other. And What they follow probably is closer to the original than Christianity is to its own origins, given that Christianity has virtually wiped out its original practices, literature and meaning.

Like all people in a position of control, they do not want to be regarded as fallible. For the Church to admit that their religion was fasioned and repackaged by the Roman state to achieve political ends, would mean the end of Christianity. For 1600 years christians have become 'used' to the current form of the religion, and it is now to late to adopt the original form of the religion - whatever form that took. That is why the church burnt heretics in the middle ages, and now buys up and supresses christian writings that opposes the accepted doctrine.

Why, Cato, Octavian of course! Didn't he kill the republic?

My telly remains dormant at the best of times, but I will be switching on for this. I suppose I'll have to buy a license now...

I see that you are a devotee of my brother, Basil Fawlty! Ah yes! The penny has dropped! Episode 2, with the spoon salesman! It turns out that Goody has now made a tearful TV appearance in which she says she is disgusted with herself. Yeah! fearful for her career more like. I think the rest of the inhabitants of that Big Brother house should be disgusted with themselves, too. Aparantly, not one of them stepped in to oppose her bullying. It really is time for this programme to be axed.

Octavius - is one of these buildings the so-called 'Regia' in the forum?

As I type, I am listening to BBC Radio 4, and I have just heard a rather interesting news story. Apparantly, worshippers of the Olympian gods are attempting to re-establish their religion in Greece, and plan to hold a ceremony at the Temple of Zeus tomorrow. Leaders of the Greek Orthodox Church are attempting to get the government to disallow this, and they are calling these people 'Revivalists of a degenerate and misguided religion'. Nice to see that tolerance prevails in Greece, and that all efforts are being made to reunite Greeks with the original religion of their culture and people.

Pertinax, does this book contain some diagrams and floorplans?

Indeed. The times when Christians were persecuted solely for their religion amounts to about 6 years in the whole of Roman history, and occurred during the reigns of Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, Decius and Diocletian, for brief spells of about 18 months each. At other times Christians were rounded up and imprisoned or killed by various governors on account of the fact that at various times they committed crimes against the state, knowing full well they would be arrested and 'martyred'. In these instances, they were arrested not because they conformed to the Christian faith, but because at these particular times to be a Christian meant being a member of a criminal element. To give a modern analogy, in the British Isles in the '80's IRA members were arrested for being members of the IRA. They were not arrested for being Irish nationalists, though - their IRA membership implied they were prepared to commit criminal acts, and it was that for which they were arrested. The emperor Theodosius and other Christian writers greatly exagerated the nature and extent of the persecutions. This trend was further augmented by Victorian romanticism and hollywood films. Interestingly enough, a group of Christians sometime in the third century approached the governor of Bithynia et Pontus, stating that, as they were Christians, they begged to be put to death to effect their martyrdom. The governor replied that he was too busy, but there were cliffs and ropes in abundance throughout the province if they wanted to do it themselves.

This does little to explain, to me, why Rome's vitality dropped in direct proportion to its Christianisation, and why the Christian movement subsequently became very military and political indeed. By the time of Justinian, Rome had regained its vitality, in direct proportion to Christianity gaining its militancy and political role. It also found the need to exterminate paganism to a degree of efficiency that vastly outshone, in terms of human and cultural loss, the very brief Christian persecutions of some emperors.

Yep - unfortunately that was for real. Jade Goody has been foisted on the British Public as a 'celebrity' on the back of a downmarket TV programme called 'Big Brother'. The basic theme of that programme is thus: 12 unstable, slightly dim, sometimes vulnerable people of dubious educational level are selected by audition, and placed in a confining environment over a period of several weeks. The British public then derive 'entertainment' from the antics of the inmates, whom the programme delibrately provoke into atrocious displays of egocentricity, bullying and occasional sexual fumblings. Occasionally, one of the inmates is quite intelligent and perhaps attractive. Needless to say, they usually find themselves at the receiving end of shameful acts of bullying and even racist abuse. Unfortunately Jade Goody, a brash, materialistic waste of DNA with a lot to say about F*** all, has become a celebrity due to her coarse, vulgar and distasteful posturing. She now has several million pounds in her bank account, largely because millions of my fellow Brits sit glued to this televisual junk and regard it as exciting. I feel genuinely saddened and a little scared that this kind of garbage is at the top of our TV ratings.

All the Christian writings destroyed in the 4th - 5th centuries. Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls which were bought up by the Vatican. Whether they were subsequently destroyed or simply placed 'beyond use' on account of their content, they are effectively lost.

Many thanks Gladius, for pointing that out. From your comment, and my further reading on the subject, I suspect that the de-politicisation enabled it to survive long enough to reach the council of Nicaea in the first place.

Here is a website that may amuse! http://www.nitpickers.com/ Here is a quote from the site: 'The red car is visible in all formats, I watched it long ago on the wide-screen version and then later on a VCD and you can see it clearly making a dust-tail through the desert in the background of the chariot race track. Was it the production vehicle or an animal caravan, I aint sure.' Here is another amusing quote: 'The great chariot race in the movie is held in the Damascus area, this is because there was no arena for chariot racing in ancient Jeruselm. There is a problem with this though. Jerusalem was in the Roman province of Judea whearas Damascus was in the province of Syria. In the movie Pontius Pilate (Frank Thring) is clearly the governor of Judea yet he appears to be presiding over a chariot race in another province! Wouldn't the govenor of Syria preside over a chariot race in his own capital city? This is like the govenor of Michigan becoming the master of cermonies at a Football game at the University Wisconsin!' ...and yet another: 'Massalla is having a conversation with Judah, and tells him that two more legions are coming to Jerusalem apparently because Tiberius wants Judea to be a more loyal province. In fact, NO Roman legions were stationed anywhere near Jerusalem until the Jewish Wars in 69 AD. The fortress of Antonia was garrisoned by a small vexilum (detachment) most likely from any of the three legions based in Syria (XII Fulminata, III Gallica, or VI Ferrata). The rest of the soldiers would have been auxiliary soldiers of either Syrian or Egyptian nationality. Since Jesus was crucified around 29 AD, that makes for a bit of a problem.' The site lists loads of other films and their continuity errors. Enjoy!

I think that Christianity was anything but apolitical once it took hold. It was edited, re-packaged and adopted as the state religion as a political expedient, and thereafter up to recent times it exercised political power to astonishing degrees.

Many thanks to you all - I had a great day!

I believe he has a cousin by the name of macadder?

...a bit like a 'thingy'?

I dont know what the book was originally called, but Ammianus' writings are published by Penguin Classics, under the name 'The Later Roman Empire'. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Later-Roman-Empire...TF8&s=books

Thank you, my friends! I am just finishing my last bottle of Valpolicella as we speak...!

Ammianus Marcellinus (4th Cent) is a late Roman literary hero of mine. He remarked that when food supplies were a bit tight in Rome, people of certain professions were temporarily excluded and sent away from the city. He was aghast that philosophers and scholars were sent away, whilst charioteers and dancers were allowed to stay. I think he would see comparisons by the shipload! Celebrity (nonentity!) Big Brother*, soaps, TV programmes about putting up decking or painting walls, not to mention a veritable cornucopia of other televisual junk, all aired between 7pm and 11pm. Sir Patrick Moore's 600th edition of 'The Sky At Night', however, gets aired at 2AM!! *For our non British friends, 'Big Brother' is a TV prog that involves putting 12 vulnerable and slightly dim people in a cramped environment, and deriving entertainment from their posturing, tantrums and possible sexual liasons. It is, sadly, one of our most popular TV programmes. Occasionally a brash, materialistic loudmouth is selected from their number, and is foisted on the British public as a 'celebrity', despite the fact no - one can stand her. Or him (whoops).

Here in Britain, our government is getting a reputation for bringing in legislation about things which are emotive, but not, in the scheme of things, important. For example, 700 hours of parliamentary time was wasted bringing in unworkable legislation about fox hunting, usually to a packed house, whereas readings of an important child protection bill were received by an almost empty house. This anti - smoking thing is just such another gimmick, and whats more, these new laws are usually made by people who disagree with the activities of other people and their lifestyle choices, affecting freedom of choice and bringing yet more blandness to a society which seems hell - bent on making life safe and risk free for all of us, yet interminably boring. As a non smoker myself, I do not give a hoot if someone in a pub on the next table is smoking. If the establishment complies with existing health and safety legislation, then extractor fans will remove smoke from the room effectively - and at any rate, smoking can be confined to certain areas. Again, fox hunting. Dont like it myself, but why ban something because I dont like it? Whatever people think about it, it brings diversity to our society in its own small way, just like motorcycling, conkers, cheese rolling, and morris dancing - all of which have been under scrutiny by do - gooders looking for yet more things to ban in order to produce a bland, cotton wool - wrapped society that ultimately does nothing but follow sport (apart from Rugby - thats too dangerous), soaps, and eat bland, plastic - wrapped supermarket food. That drives its kids round the block to school, because of the increase in traffic they themselves are fuelling. That disallows the playing of live music in pubs unless a financially crippling license is bought. That cheerfully rips off its citizens to a shocking degree, yet will prosecute someone for selling a few things on ebay whilst on unemployment benefit (welfare). That bans ball games in school playgrounds for fear of litigation from parents wanting a free trip to Sanitised Package Holiday Land. A couple of months back, one of my work colleagues twisted her ankle because of wet leaves on the pavement. She said, perfectly seriously, that street trees in towns should all be cut down so that she and other shoppers dont sustain further injury. Town councils will probably see this as a way of avoiding litigation.You know what? I bet she gets her way eventually!! Which brings us back to smoking bans. To help the public? No. To avoid litigation and a drop in the price of shares in tobacco companies owned by individual MPs and the British stock exchange? Maybe. When the government gets a chance to make laws which really would make a difference, what do we get? The Stone report (Brit. government initiative to curb global heating). They then worry if they have gone to far. TO FAR??? They should be putting limits on motor vehicle numbers per household. They should be banning the sale of Chelsea Tractors to those who do not need them to make a living. They should be putting tax on aviation fuel. But no - those things would end up getting them kicked out of government, so we get laws banning the passtimes of minorities.

Yes, I'd be up for that. A splendid Idea!

I really havent a clue, and have often thought this myself.