Northern Neil

I've turned water into beer several times! All you need is a bit of yeast, some hops to sprinkle in - add a bit of malt, and hey presto! Now, go and build me a church, you lot! I can also turn wine, beer and spirits into water!!!

Ward Perkins, Peter Heather and other historians have recently dismissed this view as it flies in the face of all evidence. In the West, it heralded the start of massive economic collapse, a drop in literacy, a fall in population, desertion of cities and a huge decline in the living standards of ordinary people. In some countries such as Britain, Gaul and Spain, the Historical record almost ceased for two centuries. Coinage ceased to circulate. Quality of pottery and other manufactured goods sharply fell. Long distance travel ceased - in 400 it was possible to send a letter from Cadiz to Alexandria. By 500 this was impossible and would be for another 1000 years. Iron age economy was returned to, as well as building techniques - stone buildings with tiled roofs were only built by the Church, and on a very small scale. The low point came in about 800, when there were no towns west of Constantinople with a population greater than 5'000, with the exception of Arab Cordoba, in Spain. Trade throughout the Western Mediterranean did not return to fourth century levels until the 18th century. The upturn only began in the tenth century, with the advent of city states in Northern Italy, and a return to long distance trade. The rise of Christianity in this period is only a subjective bonus perceived by litoralist Christians. Compare all this with the situation before the mid 5th century. Antiquity is believed to have ended with the Arab invasions of the 7th century, although the term itself was fairly recently coined to refer to an uncertain, ambiguous period.

On greater scrutiny, Osiris may be doubtful... but Dionysus and Bacchus were DEFINITELY nailed to bits of wood! In fact, the first 'crucifixes', dated to the 2nd century, were of Bacchus. Mind you, the guy looks like he's downed a flagon or three in his time...

Problem is, what do we then call him? Dionysus, Bacchus, Osiris or Jesus?

Yes - the atlas only goes as far as Persia. There were also enclaves in Persia and Arabia, but the Atlas I think is trying to show the dominant religions in the area. By the way, have you got this atlas and its companion, the Penguin Atlas of Ancient History?

I agree Pilate was forced to decree the crucifiction of Jesus, but this is not the matter here. No, the point is being missed here. Please re-read carefully my comment, my dear Rameses. I am saying it is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that Pilate was forced to kill Jesus. This is a later Roman postscript in order to cast the governor in a good light to Roman converts. In reality, Pilate wouldn't have batted an eyelid at executing a troublesome Jewish agitator. And yes, it is part of the matter here. Looking at Colin Mc evedy's 'Penguin Atlas of Mediaeval History' as I write, there is a distribution map of religion in AD 525. Christianity conforms to EXACTLY the area covered by both east and west Roman empires in the preceeding century. Even though the west was gone, the geographical 'shape' of the Empire was still delineated by the areas of Christian populations. Therefore, Christianity was a 'Roman thing'. My comment about Pilate, and the improbable story about his hesitancy over executing Christ, is just one tiny example I have plucked from an immense array of instances in which the Bible was edited to be more palatable to Romans. That this religion was eventually taken up by the Romans explains its meteoric rise after 325. It wouldn't have happened if the scriptures had been kept in their original form.

Damn... and I've only just finished building a church to the last one! (see gallery) :angel:

Possibly not - mine is 'Who's Who in the Roman World' John Hazel, Routledge, 2001.

hmm... Just thumbing through my own copy of 'Who's Who', it does actually say: '...he was rejected by his family (who had high expectations of him) and the townspeople of Nazareth...' ...but then, in one of my books somewhere, Nazareth itself is called into question. It is said that it simply wasn't there until the third century, and that 'Jesus of Nazareth' was actually 'Jesus the Nazorean'. Wikipaedia states:

Yes, but that only applies if one follows the 'official' line on Jesus. And the official line comes from Romans cherry picking and altering the scriptures to suit themselves. How could Constantine possibly expect his subjects to accept Christianity, if the Bible stated that Jesus was a focus of rebellion against them, and that a Roman Governor had him mercilessly tortured and killed? Furthermore, the Jews were once again becoming rebellious at the this time. So, blame them for forcing Pilate's hand, and being responsible for killing Jesus. Even as a child at primary school, I used to think: 'why didn't Pilate, who seems not to have wanted to kill Jesus, just tell the jews to get lost, or he'd send in the troops?' The whole story just doesn't bear up. Whilst I have no issue whatsoever against the spiritual message of Jesus itself - in as much as it can be discerned amongst the later waffle - it is sad, but true, that the Bible was like many pre-modern historical accounts. Written by the winners.

To a point, perhaps. I agree with Cato that many people will be exercising great objectivity here. For myself, I am by no means a fan of Christianity, but no one can deny that it is an immense and enduring legacy of the Roman Empire. I find it amazing that the Catholic Church, organised and set up by the Romans, using Latin as its administrative language, is with us today.

...and they say Nero fiddled while Rome burned...

No, thats a valid point, Octavius. I find the Druid thing a little more difficult to understand, given that there is almost nothing known about it with which to reconstruct the religion. If indeed it was a religion, and not just a sub-division within Celtic paganism. I must also agree with TaylorS - for Greek Orthodox priests to believe that their religious texts are a matter of historical fact flies in the face of all evidence, and to claim that any other kind of spirituality has less relevence to theirs is plainly elitist and misguided. I think the mystery cultists had it about right - religious texts were not to be taken as a literal truth, but were allegories, tailored to the worshippers background and culture in order to enable a spiritual connexion with god. What name you gave him, or wether or not you ate Pork, or fish on Friday, didn't really come into it.

I voted for religion. Christianity, in its definitive form and in the form it is practiced today, was not only a product of the Roman Empire, but continues to be a unifying force to this day.

...and if one is trying to 'sell' Christianity to the Romans, as was the case post 312, one would only preserve texts which show Jesus showing deference to Romans. Likewise, Romans being impartial, or in Pilates case, good guys having their hands forced to do bad things.

I think its because 'nobs' are the only ones who have continuous documentary evidence of their ancestry. Also it is quite true that, the further back in history a personality is, the more likely you are to be one of their descendents. For example, it is unlikely that I or anyone else reading this is a descendent of Winston Churchill; however, if we could only but test this scientificlly, it is probable that many of us are genetically related to the Julio Claudians - when one considers how many children, including bastards, that this family gave rise to in the first centuries BC/AD alone.

Here in England, we have only had 2 frosty mornings since autumn/winter began. Temperatures have hovered at around 12 degrees, and back in mid-November the trees were still covered with leaves. This has been the case increasingly from about the mid 'nineties. If this is the continuation of a 'natural' warming phase, then it has suddenly stepped itself up a pace. I think we all know what is happening, and I will use the phrase 'Global Warming' that so far has been absent from this thread, aside from Primus Pilus' link. It is down to all of us - right now, and as individuals - to put a stop to this. Industry, after all, only reacts to the demands of consumers. I am happy to be able to say that my 'carbon footprint' currently averages at about 0.65, and has done for the past six months or so. The Carbon Footprint is a measure as to how many planet earths would be needed for everyone on the planet to live your lifestyle. If yours is 2.5, say, then it would take 2.5 planet earths for everyone on earth to live like you. Here is a link: http://erasemyfootprint.com/

I believe the Byzantines used Pecheneg mercenaries in the tenth century. They were certainly Turkic, but wether or not they were Muslim, I don't know.

Utterly unsurprising, given that we made Jade Goody a 'celeb'...

BLAST! I MISSED IT! Once again, my defective memory strikes...

ludovicus, these images are terrific! I think you should insert them in the gallery, as they show the slow decay and re-use of Roman structures perfectly!

Ironically the most damage occurred to the city when the Empire re-conquered it in the mid 6th century. Walls were breached and aqueducts were cut by the East Roman army during the seige. Monuments such as Hadrian's Tomb were fortified and stripped of their marble adornments, which were used as missiles by the defending Goths. Prior to that it was becoming tatty, but still recogniseably the same classical city as of old. The Goths maintained many of the monuments and still staged chariot races in the Circus Maximus, despite considering them a waste of time and money themselves. After the disastrous reconquest by Justinian, the population of the city dropped as there was only one aqueduct remaining in working order, and from thence Rome's population was strung out along the course of that one aqueduct. The Senate ceased to function immediately prior to this, as most of the senators were killed by the Goths for aiding the East Roman re-conquest. From that point on, Rome's 'classical' era ended, and its mediaeval one began. Church records refer to cattle and sheep being driven through the forum in about 600, so by then the rot had truly set in.

I think the systems were in place already, with the transport system, the state run factories of the late empire, and citizens reduced to bonded labour on the great estates. Had events of the 5th century not been as far reaching, and Persia/the Arab Caliphate ended their wasteful wars with the eastern empire, this could have happened round about 700, perhaps. This would also be dependent on the Church not sticking its oar in, given that the scientific enquiry of classical times was frowned upon by eastern and western churches.

...or, from the botanical world, 'Pinus Vulgaris' (common Pine)!

The apocryphal gospels do, though, and they record that sometimes he could be a rather unpleasent person. The same as any other normal human being, in fact - probably why it wasn't included in the definitive texts!