Northern Neil

BUMP! This thread is too good to lose just yet!

I didn't miss it; I politely sidestepped it. Whereas a cloud may sometimes be shaped like a bunny rabbit, it is obviously not one, as it is made of condensed water vapour. This on the other hand is a map, with landforms of similar shape and position to other landforms on other maps. Using Kosmo's logic, modern maps sometimes have inaccuracies which render them unlike the actual place mapped. For example, the mercator projection shows Greenland as being almost as big as Africa. Other antique maps show areas which are clearly Europe, or the Americas, but the shape is very inaccurate and unlike the modern day projection. Ptolemy's map of Britain, for example, is obviously britain, but placed next to a modern map and it is as grossly inaccurate as you can get. Regarding the portuguese and large snakes; were the large snakes actually there or were they told they were there? The portuguese landed in other places like Brazil where there are very large snakes indeed. I think it is time for me to graciously back out of this discussion; the Piri Reis map is of peripheral interest to me and if I am spending a lot of time defending the indefensible so be it. I do not want my colleagues on UNRV to consider me of the ilk of Hancock, Hapgood, Van - Danniken camp etc but I believe this is starting to occur with my friends Kosmo and Marcus! :blowup:

1st, this is not a fact, nor even a theory; this is a hypothesis based upon speculation which, in turn, is inspired by pereidolia (your word for the day). my apologies; you are quite correct, nothing is a fact unless it can be absolutely verified using empirical means. Which includes scientific precepts considered to be 'proven'. In the context of the discussion we have here, as opposed to a scientific journal, it was quicker to phrase it that way. However, I do not believe that the distinct similarity of the Piri Reis map in relation to Tierra del Fuego and the Antarctic land mass using the specific projection of the globe mentioned in the link, and illustrated in the last two maps of the same, has been addressed. With respect to your second point, if artifacts are present in Antarctica, they would be very difficult to recover given the current glaciated state, and there are few natives to consult about their folk tales which might shed any light on this. Further north, in South America, folk tales abound which could indicate pre columbian visitors, and some of the people to whom these tales belong are quite specific that they do in fact refer to visitors from east of the Atlantic; they are, however, considered inconclusive pending further evidence. You are correct; there is no evidence other than this map to say that pre columbians - or even pre - Shakletonians - made landfalls on Antarctica. I am by no means claiming that this one piece of evidence proves that they did - I am simply asking the question: How did this map come to resemble so closely the areas under discussion, using that specific projection of the globe? This is the only question I am asking. I know all about sensationalist writers, pseudo historians and cranks, but their presence and opinions are not in themselves evidence that this map is bogus or incorrect.

The amazing thing is, these people's bodies do not seem to have suffered the effects of decomposition like ours do!

He did not! Ottomans had a very limited knowledge of the world, but their expansion in the Middle East forced them to gather info for the sustained effort to expand in the Indian Ocean. So, they used many sources, but the most important were the european ones. This map shows the level of knowledge at it's making, but also the fact that neither explorations or map making were at their best level. N.N. Your source it's, obviously, not to be trusted and quoting the claims of misteries fans it's not an evidence in itself. For a critical view see here: http://xoomer.alice.it/dicuoghi/Piri_Reis/PiriReis_eng.htm But this critical view is in itself flawed from a scholarly point of view and lacks objectivity, as references to 'mystery lovers' demonstrates. The fact that the Piri Reis map shows the orientation of cuba and the coast of antarctica using a specific projection of the globe seems to be omitted in this account. As you can see from the piri reis map and the modern map using the same projection right at the end of my link, the orientations of such landmasses are actually accurate enough to eliminate the possibility of chance. I am not a mystery lover, I just want to know how this accuracy was obtained. To disregard this as co - incidental or meaningless simply because pseudohistorians and mystery lovers have over used such findings and added to them pure fantasy is, like their own findings, a conclusion arrived at emotionally rather than objectively.

...and yet, even this amount of caution did not prevent the death of an innocent Brazilian electrician suspected of being a muslim terrorist.

I do indeed remember this item, as it caused massive debate in Britain at the time. The overwhelming sympathy was for the home owner involved, and not the dead intruder. I do not have a gun myself (I used to - an Enfield muzzle loading rifle musket from my days as a Union soldier in the American Civil War Society). This was by law locked away in a metal cabinet, with the gunpowder and ball locked in a separate cabinet in another part of the house. So the law of our country made it very difficult for me even as a gun owner to unlock, load and use this weapon in the event of an intrusion. I think that is why this man was convicted, because he had pre - meditatively unlocked and loaded his gun in anticipation.

The basement of the Roman Bath Inn must be haunted indeed. See how a ghostly white legionary looks on as Caldrail's guardian!

Here is another interesting Link: http://www.ancestral.co.uk/romanmusic.htm Again, it tells us a fair bit about the technical side of Roman Music, but does not enlighten us as to wether or not anyone became famous or rich for pursuing a career in music. I have trawled the internet in search of individual Romans who are known simply for music, but have found not a single one. My books also draw a similar blank. The general view of Nero is that, although he was very conceited, he was actually quite a good musician. So, I suppose that, for now, we have to say that Nero was Rome's most famous musician. But like Woody Allen (a very capable Jazz clarinetist) his fame was not earned through music, which appears to have been a hobby. A question for people who have more knowledge about Nero than me: Was he influenced a lot by Greek literature, poetry and music? It appears that the Greeks took music quite seriously, studying its tonal qualities and relating it to spirituality, whereas the Romans seemed to have used it just as background to other things.

Ahh... I now understand the context of Ratus' statement. This is a very complex debate which can become very polarised. I personally dont know which view to take - students may well have stopped a gunman in 2002, and obviously the right to bear arms stopped a terrible crime from being committed. However, most of the mass killings of this nature in Britain have been carried out by licenced gun owners who have otherwise been law abiding individuals, slightly socially awkward and timid individuals. If the law had made it impossible - or illegal for them to own guns, these attrocities -at least, in this country - may well have not occurred. In our country illegally acquired firearms tend to be owned by disadvantaged youths who commit one mistake and then regret it for the rest of their lives.

Heres something that discusses the technical side of Roman music: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/1452/ROMAN.HTML Although this article is interesting from the technical point of view, it does little to address the question as to wether or not individuals musicians had any status for their art. I would speculate that they didnt. I say this because the music on offer in Roman times appears to be a background accompaniment rather than a central theme in any entertainment, a bit like tribal music, or the 'house' music one hears in discos etc. Judging by the paucity of actual melody, it is hard to say whether the fusion of poetry and music (songs!) had occurred by this time. As far as I am aware there are no poems short enough to have been songs, and no references to poems or verse written specifically for this purpose. In the Celtic world, however, the situation may have been entirely different. It is interesting that Plato wanted to ban the Ionian mode, as it is the standard c major scale. In mediaeval times the Church banned the Aeolian mode as they believed it was inspired by the devil. This is understandable as minor chords can be derived from this scale. In theatres, musicians provided an acompaniment to plays much like the pianist accompanied silent movies in the early 20th century.

Heres something that discusses the technical side of Roman music: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/1452/ROMAN.HTML Although this article is interesting from the technical point of view, it does little to address the question as to wether or not individuals musicians had any status for their art. I would speculate that they didnt. I say this because the music on offer in Roman times appears to be a background accompaniment rather than a central theme in any entertainment, a bit like tribal music, or the 'house' music one hears in discos etc. Judging by the paucity of actual melody, it is hard to say whether the fusion of poetry and music (songs!) had occurred by this time. As far as I am aware there are no poems short enough to have been songs, and no references to poems or verse written specifically for this purpose. In the Celtic world, however, the situation may have been entirely different. In theatres, musicians provided an acompaniment to plays much like the pianist accompanied silent movies in the early 20th century.

1) 'The Archaeology of Roman Britain' by R.G.Collingwood and Ian Richmond. I got this as a christmas present in 1975 and still have it. 2) 'Britannia' by Sheppard Frere. The author stayed at my mum and Dad's house in '74, and I have a signed copy! 3) 'Rome in Africa' by Susan Raven. Great dialogue and pics. 4) 'The Towns of Roman Britain' by Wacher. I have just acquired a copy from Pertinax. Wow! 5) In anticipation, 'Roman Sex'. I will now log on to Amazon...

Happy Birthday, Theilian. Long may your insightful posts enrich our forum! EDIT: Spelling mistakes corrected!

When I buy foam board it is usually 5mm thick and comes in sheets 1metre x 1.5 metre. Picture framing card yuo can buy cheaply as offcuts in art shops. Tacky glue is OK, but it tends to form 'strings' which can spoil the appearance of your model.

WOW: telepathy! Just as you sent this post, I sent you a PM answering your query. The plans will be with you in a few days, and I have scaled them up to 15mm scale, so you can glue them to a base and build directly on them. Materials you can get are Foam board, picture framing card, modelling clay and PVA glue.

I certainly think that once a year is not enough - I think that AC's suggestion of a Hadrian's Wall trip in September followed by a Southern meeting next spring is a great suggestion. In order to cut down travel expenses for some of our Southern members, I am sure that us more northerly based people could do a bit of car sharing. I could, for example, pick two people up in Lancaster on route for the Wall.

We had a great time! It was fantastic! We explored York, its walls, the Roman stuff and had lots of beer and fun, and great discussions. We even had a few philosophical discussions about various Python films which did not go down well with some pilgrims to York's holier places... Pertinax's report to follow! I was greatly saddened when I had to leave my new friends and drive back to my home town. Keep in touch, everyone!

Fine! No problem - but how did the information get on the map in the first place? The map itself is evidence that parts of the Americas and Antarctica were mapped prior to 1513. How did this happen?

The southern portion of the map, using the azimuthal equidistant projection, however, exactly depicts the southern part of Tierra del Fuego, Palmer Land and Antarctica, as can be seen at the very end of the article if one scrolls down far enough. No one decided it looks like Antarctica - it just does. Cuba even has a vertical appearance, as dictated by this particular projection of the globe. South Georgia and the Falklands (Malvinas) are shown, which were not discovered until a century or more after the map was complied. This has nothing at all to do with pseudo history, or early explorers mistaking Amerindians for Chinese. Further, the map, far from being strange and awfully wrong, was actually quite accurate - more so than some later maps. I ask again - How did Piri Reis manage to compile a map accurately showing Antarctica and portions of the Americas not yet reached by Europeans?

My favourite is Ward Perkins. For some years I had been swayed by revisionist writers into thinking that Western civilisation did not undergo a Dark Age,it simply 'evolved'. I somehow felt comforted by this idea, and I embraced this theory, whilst at the same time never quite dispensing with a niggling doubt. Ward Perkins, in his 'The Fall of Rome', took everyone by the scruff of the neck and said: Here is evidence which confirms what everyone until the '70's was saying anyway. The fall of Rome was calamitous, and led to massive decline in population, living standards, education and civilisation in general. He is right- all the evidence points to it, and I admire him for having the courage to oppose what was until very recently a trendy but misinformed view.

When are you citizens of Nova Ebvracvm going to meet? seems to me there are as many of you as there are us Brits! I keep pestering Gaius Octavius about it - and it would give me an excuse to visit a place I've always wanted to visit, but not gotten round to yet! Talking of which, how is old Gaius? Havent heard from him for a day or two...

It is possible he may have come from an area which is now in Scotland, but it does not make him Scottish; Britons inhabited the southern uplands up to the forth - Clyde line. They werent displaced until the 'Scots' settled en masse about 200 years after the time of Arthur. At the time of Bannockburn Galwegians, nominally Scottish but descended from Strathclyde Britons, were part of Robert the Bruce's force.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm Just a little reminder from further back on this topic. The map in question was said by its creator to comprise information dating to the 4th century BC and even earlier. Given that this map is considered authentic by most scholars, I would say that here at least is undisputed evidence that someone mapped the Americas and Antarctica in pre Columbian times. If not the Phoenicians/ Carthaginians, then who?