Northern Neil

An ancient Roman theatre? Nicely done! Any particular theatre? -- Nephele I had the Odeon in Pompeii in mind here - a little theatre for about 1000 theatre - lovers. Keep on this thread for further developments!

Hey! look at this, that happened a year or two ago. It improved the appearance of Birmingham immensely! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4725711.stm

RIGHT!!!! After a couple of hours work, I am pleased to show preliminary pics of my response to the aggressive intrusion of the Lego company into a field jealously monopolised up to now by anoraks such as myself. Tiny Temples for Augusta, GPM and Augustus are temporarily on hold, as is, I am afraid, Nephele's luxurious villa. I even had a Curia on the drawing board for Cato, but no - this dictates a response. Here it is - preliminary stages! (Can you guess what it is yet?)

I believe that our ugly, stupid, thick people are already adept at speaking a form of latin, which could well mutate into its very own 'white-trash romance' given time. In England, every morning at 09.30 television viewers of a certain disposition and educational level are treated to a daily serving of the 'Jeremy Kyle Show'. This is the English version of the show we all know well, in which dim, vulnerable people are harangued by a studio audience of only slightly less dim voyeurs, who hiss and boo at the way the guests conduct their lives - doubtless to go home and commit the same atrocities themselves shortly afterwards. Anyway, like I said, these people already seem to know a fair few latin phrases such as 'Et Cetera' (usually pronounced by such people as 'Eksetewaah') and 'Vice Versa' (usually pronounced 'Vicerversaah'). Maybe The Augusta can render such phrases into the Scouse vernacular, given her admiration for the fine folk of Liverpool?

On the whole I think they are very good; occasionally however (and ONLY occasionally) they make assumptions based on scanty evidence. For example, the book on Saxon Shore forts shows regular spaced barrack blocks, almost 2nd century style, in a reconstruction of the RVTVPIAE (Richborough) fort. I understand there is little evidence to support the presence of such buildings, and like other forts on the Saxon Shore, its internal plan remains open to conjecture.

I believe Christianity was quite insubstantial right up to the start of the fourth century, and only really gathered pace after Constantines death - and, of course, the gaps were plugged in the way you describe. Once Christianity contained the bits of other religions the populace liked, and became useful as a means of political control, it really took off. Getting back to the original question of this topic, I do believe elements of Caesar's life may have been tagged on to the Jesus story, but not nearly as fully as the author of this book suggests.

Yep, you are quite right, it was silly to ridiculous extremes - not to mention a couple of dozen heavily armed soviets on U.S. territory, in an era in which they wouldn't have had a prayer. But, as Lucius says, it was good clean family fun.

395 is indeed stated in some sources because it is the time when the severance of Eastern and Western Empires became permanent. The two separate halves of the Empire are regarded by some as successor states. However... As with all namings of different phases of the Roman State, this is with the benefit of hindsight and only partially true. When Odoacer deposed Romulus Augustus and sent the imperial insignia to Constantinople, he did so because the atrophy of the Western provinces was such that an emperor in the West was considered superfluous. He considered himself a provincial governor of Italy, and at the time no - one really noticed that anything momentous had occurred at all. The Empire was considered to be re-unified with his deposition, much as it had been re-unified several times before. In addition, it was re-unified under a legitimate emperor, not usurpers, as Julius Nepos and Romulus Augustus actually were. As Colin McEvedy states in his Atlas of Medieval History, continued use of the term Eastern Roman Empire after 476 is a modern idea, and used by us as a way of recognising '...the many differences between the Classical Roman Empire and the Roman Empire of Constantinople'.

...and when you subtract from this brief ministry the tales which are also attributed to other gods and cults, and which often predate Jesus, then reasons for contemporary documentation of this man become scarcer still.

Allow me to applaud you for a very interesting point, which I have never considered before. Come to think of it, its the aspects of everyday life in the Bible which are the least altered, or tampered with. This gives us clues that other parts may have been. For example, 4th century Christians found it insignificant that Mary Magdalene washed Jesus' feet at a wedding, and that at the same wedding Jesus provided the wine. So it was left unaltered by the 4th century Christians who were of course unaware that in the 1st century, Jews behaved like this - at their own weddings.

Thats it! The Radio 4 version, I was thinking of. I am, as I type, attempting to get my copy from Amazon. Many thanks, Melvadius.

I saw a pirated copy of "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" today. It opened with the Elvis Presley song 'Hound Dog'. It is set in the 50's, of course, a period I am particularly fond of historically, musically, sartorially and regards my personal style. Its ALWAYS Elvis now, isnt it? Not Jerry Lee, Carl Perkins, Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent or the rest - just 'Elvis'. As I walk down the street in my very parochial cul -de-sac of a town, 'Hey - Elvis!' is the only taunt the local trolls can think of to throw at me for daring to look slightly different. Anyway, apart from that I quite enjoyed the film. Obviously the James - Dean/Marlon Brando character was a good innovation, even though he was riding a Harley (Good ol' sponsorship - fly the flag, son!) and not a BSA or Triumph. I quite liked one bit where he woke up to find himself in a town full of life - size mannekins of people shopping, or in family groups, realising suddenly he was in a nuclear test zone. I wont elaborate because it will spoil the story, but it was for me the eeriest part of the film.

I do not know if I dare watch this - even the views of moderate christians vis-a-vis Roman history tend to get me a little worked up. EDIT: I came, I saw, I fell about laughing - this was too preposterous to get me even slightly cheesed-off. Most pseudo historians and religious apologists annoy me because their stories are just plausable enough to influence people who have not read other material in depth. They use the conventional timeline and have enough knowledge of history to convince some people that they have researched their stuff, and so 'must be right'. This chap is too harmless to get me annoyed - he pads out his narrative by giving several long lists attached to the pictures which flash up on the screen - in one particular visual list, I noticed he stopped naming things and said '..and so on' when Haghia Sophia appeared. Maybe he cannot pronounce Constantinople? I also notice that when Julius Caesar was mentioned, a statue of Augustus appeared. HILARIOUS! Seriously, I can imagine even fundamental religious types with their own manipulation of history whispering to him: 'PSSST.. shut your face! We're losing credibility here!'

I thought the TV adaptation was a bit more recent than that, say, early 90's. I have all four of the Sutcliffe books relating to the same Romano - British family (Eagle of the Ninth, The Silver Branch, Frontier Wolf and The Lantern Bearers) and still occasionally get them out and re-read them. They are intended I think for teenage readers, but would still make great films. I like the way Sutcliffe has from time to time had a stab at suggesting, through her stories, that so far undiscovered sites remain to be discovered. Occasionally she has been right!

Yes - it is also very much appreciated. For some of us, it is quite an important part of our daily lives!

Apart from pigs, most animals are worth more alive than dead - sheep for wool, chickens for eggs, cows for milk etc. We live in a society in which many people expect meat everyday - in the ancient world I believe meat may have been a luxury rather than a staple. It is highly likely that Roman legionaries were treated to meat only on the death of a pack animal or horse.

This theory is I agree unlikely, but not for the above reasons; indeed, the story of the development of Christianity from Jewish sect to Roman socio - political tool supports the hypothesis. To say that Rome was a strong enemy of Christianity is simplifying the case, and ignores the reality that the Empire became the champion of Christianity. It is difficult to see how it would have developed into a major religion had the Roman state not been there to politically shape and then push the religion onto its subjects. To make it sellable to the Roman public, fourth century emperors had to infuse a LOT of Roman - ness into the religion in order for it to flourish. Prior to the fourth century, some emperors arrested large numbers of Christians because on occasions, Christians set themselves up against the state, causing disruption, acts of vandalism - and yes, in some instances murder. In the second and third centuries, to be a Christian often meant that one was a violent fanatic with little regard to the law or to anyone with a differing point of view - however, the amount of time in which the Empire officially punished people solely for being Christian, in the absence of other crimes, was actually a very short amount of time indeed. To say that melding Caesar with Jesus is inconceivable is to ignore other considerations. One cannot ignore the fact that Christianity in its definitive form was almost entirely a Roman construct. Almost everything in the Christian tradition is inherited from Rome, and even the gospels - or rather, the earliest complete ones - were completed by Romans, at a time when Christianity was soaking up pagan tradition like a sponge. In additon, although Jesus was the central figure, the Roman citizen Paul of Tarsus was the chief architect. What makes this theory untenable, IMHO, is that the gospels already contain huge mounts of material from other cults such as those of Dionysus, Bacchus etc and there is simply no room to include much material relating to Caesar. This does not mean, however, that Jesus' divinity was not inspired in part by the Caesar - Venus tale.

Caesar died for your sins, Heathen! ..and when you go to heaven, you will BE WITH HIM!

Well, If you have been reading history as long as that, I am sure we can all learn something from you too. Welcome aboard!

Is this chap the gifted individual who discovered a 1500 year old book which - curiously - has the same syntax as the early 19th century context in which it was discovered?

What a splendid photo. I am surprised the atmosphere on Mars is dense enough to enable the use of paracutes. Were there re-entry problems similar to Earth? EDIT: or in this case, entry?

Well, the thing is, they didnt - but it makes at least partial sense when one considers that 95% of what is now Christianity was constructed by the Romans themselves. The religion as it stands now (and since, say, the late 4th century) probably has very little in it from the original Nazarenes. That is why I suggested earlier that it was not a preposterous suggestion that elements of Caesar's life has been woven into the Jesus story. And I think that is what this writer is suggesting, not that Caesar and Jesus were the same individual.

Maybe, but then so did the auxillia of earlier times - A unit of Hamian Archers from what is now the Lebanon was based on the next fort along from Housesteads, during the period when Barracks were regular and contained 10 identical rooms. I think the irregular form of the later barracks is a sign that they had become more like houses than barracks limited to military use only.

You are aware I take it, that slaves were recruited to the legions more than once? Granted they were made freedmen first, but hardly citizens were they? Further, that the practice of including landless peasants (and not ciizens either) in the levies was one inspiration for Marius's reforms and the opening of the legions to volunteers of the lower orders? Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army Are we to believe that this Syrian was part of an old Roman family, who could provide documentary evidence for the presence of his forebears in the centurionate? I rather think not. Here, we also clear up the query as to how someone became camp prefect. So we have here one respected secondary source, and the tombstone itself a good primary source, I believe.

..Not as much of a lone voice as you may think, Calders. Anyone who has read in depth about the later Roman Empire and the proliferation of mystery religions from 100 - 300 realises that the Jesus story as finally edited in 325 at Nicaea is actually a cobbled together account of the lives of many different individuals rolled into one character. Given the high status of the Divine Julius in the Principate, and the late Roman penchant for sculpting the Christian religion to make it fit politically with the Roman state, I find it not at all preposterous that some of Caesars life has been enmeshed in the Jesus story. Especially when one considers that Christianity was in the main a product of the Roman Empire itself. The only issue I take with you is that Jesus existed - when the evidence is examined methodically, it turns out there is actually no evidence at all.