Northern Neil

ooops!!! sorry. Ok...

The earliest complete versions of the Gospels come from the fourth century; earlier versions are very fragmentary and there is no way of telling wether or not their content was the same. I am glad you have mentioned Paul; his later letters are deemed by many impartial scholars as being forgeries as they differ considerably in style and syntax from the earlier letters, which are generally regarded as authentic. The earlier epistles do indeed mention a crucified and risen jesus, but make no reference whatsoever to the historical Jesus, whom he never met. In that sense, they are about as reliable and valid as accounts from other Roman Christians such as Eusebius and Augustine, or even accounts we may pen ourselves. However, by depicted I did indeed mean art, statues etc. Pre fourth century depictions appear to be representations of other gods such as Orpheus and Bacchus, or indistict graffiti which could be Jesus, but could equally be associated with these other cults. I would be glad to see unambiguous pre-4th century depictions of the Crucifixion, and I am happy to change my position on this if I see the evidence; my position on Christianity is not to ridicule or dismiss it, simply to apply the same standards of scrutiny as to any other ancient mythology which might or might not contain elements of truth.

It depends on what you call a 'Roman'. Technically the Dominate had far more Romans in its armies than the Principate, because all free men from the provinces were citizens from the early 3rd century onwards.

Cities like York, Edinburgh and Paris can be beautiful places. Conurbs like Sheffield, the Ruhr valley and Los Angeles are hideous. The highlands of Scotland and the Italian lakes are beautiful; rapeseed plantations in Norfolk, and endless wheat in Canada dull and featureless.

Since the bible contains invented prose anyway, it isn't hard to believe the crucifixion of Jesus is also fictional. By that I mean the various miracles attributed to Jesus, which are also found in Indian and Egyptian mythos of the time. In other words, the story is embellished to portray Jesus as divine. The whole crucifixion story, as well as those of the miracles, runs very close to the mythology of Dionysus/Bacchus. There is not one depiction of the biblical crucifixion prior to the fourth century, and one source I have suggests even later than that. Even the 'donkey on a cross' graffito in the catacombs, believed popularly to be a pagan mockery of Jesus (if so, a far from intelligent one) is nothing of the kind and is a reference to Osiris, whose stories also anticipate many of the Jesus ones. Depictions of Bacchus on a cross, however, are sometimes found, dating from the 2nd century. They even show the very familiar 'slump' of the knees to one side, seen so often in later crucifixes. (yes, I can provide references and pictures if required). Maybe the crucifixion story was grafted from earlier mythology as a mechanism to make pagan converts feel comfortable with the idea of a deified Jesus. It would not be the only instance of pagan mythology being grafted on to the new faith.

Gerasa Gwahhhh! One second before I posted. hahahahaha I like the trail of clues Kosmo sowed for us. One thing that confused me; Some Google images incorrectly say this theatre is in Palmyra; on closer inspection, the palmyrene theatre is somewhat more fragmentary.

JERASH!!!!!!

Klingan, is this change Empire wide? Reason I ask, it seems that later period villas in Britain are peristyle-less as well, and I cannot see, in my brief speed - reading of relevent books, many late Roman public buildings that have this feature either. I wonder if it reflects the change in public building style. When I look at later Roman public buildings, I see monuments such as the basilica at Trier, which seems to be without an associated square collonade. Also, later forts such as the Saxon Shore fort at Lympne have headquarters buildings, with cross hall and offices, but lacking the enclosed collonade.

Almost. It's Palmyra's sister city. Hemesa?

Palmyra?

Me too. I notice that some of Goldsworthy's comments are pertinent to the currently running topic about comparisons with Rome and the US. He seems to regard them as inevitably loaded and somewhat fatuous. A vew many ofus agree with. I must say, I am listening to all of the interviews on DDickey's link, and I am enjoying all of them. I am also fast becoming a fan of Marshall Poe, who also gives some good insights as well as being a competent interviewer/presenter.

You mean in that moment; no less than four apostles (Peter, Andrew, Bartholomew and Philip) were eventually crucified. ..not forgetting, of course, that some of the apocryphal gospels said he wasn't crucified at all, and that the Canonical gospels themselves were chosen as the authentic ones 300 years after the events they relate.

Hmmm... well, the nature could be anywhere from Northern Spain, through Italy to the Balkans. Or is this a cryptic clue? Lucretius wrote 'De rerum natura' - on the nature of things, whilst Virgil wrote about nature in the Georgics... Am I getting closer?

Nicaea (Iznik)?

Nice one, Aurelia - I was just about to bump the thread when I saw your research. I notice there are a few hotels which are very reasonable indeed. Maybe we should get an idea about who might be attending, and start making some reservations? In the meantime I will be contacting the site museum and puttingout feelers for a block booking.

Yes - we must do it!

Absolutely. No need for it to be painful at all! (sigh) just like Katherine Hepburn in 'The African Queen' Now.. lets see if you can extract some personal pics from some of the others. I would LOVE to see MPC in the flesh!

Ditto to that! I am...anything come up yet?

Greetings fellow Northerner - I see you hail from Mamucium. My name is Neil, and I come from the North - simple as that! (The North of England, that is!)

This is very sad indeed. It is however nice to see that the Turks have set up an agency to investigate this. Closer to home, I see exactly the same thing going on here. One of the local farms is built into a small 14th century castle which has a modest, low curtain wall. The curtain wall, low and crumbling visibly by the year, is used as... a sheep pen.

Here's me - pic taken in 2006. I am at a campsite near Hadrian's Wall, andcooking some beans and sausages on an open fire. It was a good trip!

'Despite the evidence still being traceable it is unlikely that the population in north west Wales will look Mediterranean however.' ' Hmmmm... The mediterranean appearance of many Welsh, Irish and Breton individuals is well attested - I even have two work colleagues who come from Wales, and and have a distinctly Spanish 'look'. Oppenheimer (Origins of the Brtitish) comments on this and even provides photographs. I could also give as examples 'The Edge' from U2, and the actor Stanley Baker (Zulu). Spanish looking? You bet, boyo!

Happy Birthday old boy. I will celebrate it with a drive up to Hadrian's Wall, a good look round, take some pics, and finish off with a sunday roast and a glass of claret with which I will toast your greatness.