okamido

I didn't see this anywhere, so I thought I would share it. http://www.livescience.com/19729-female-gladiator-statue-rome.html

Sorry that I couldn't provide the entire article from the magazine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/8853054/Lost-Roman-camp-that-protected-against-Germanic-hordes-found.html

Hercules

As reported by Plutarch, the first century Greek historian, Spartans were supposed to have submitted their newborn infants to members of the Gerousia for physical inspection. If found to be too small, too sickly, or even malformed, the Spartan elders would then throw the infant into the apothetae (pit), which was located at the base of Mt Taygetos. Unfortunately, there is no record of this in anything but the works of Plutarch, who only had the anectodal works of Sparta's enemies to work with. Recent research however has seemingly debunked this long-standing myth. Studies conducted by the Athen's Faculty of Medicine, in conjuction with Cambridge Universities, Center for Sparta, have located skeletal remains of 46 individuals. None of which however, are those of an infant. In fact, all of the remains that have been found are those of men in their lates teens to mid-thirties. Anthropologists and historians believe that the apothetae was a place of execution for traitors, criminals, and 'tremblers', but not infants. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hHzsLiMdT06yLSvTLMEozBFUC1sQ

It is part of the Praeficae and the Cult of Nenia. The custom is actually much more violent than it was shown. The women performing the praeficae (wailing song), are supposed to beat their breast to produce blood with the milk, better to nourish the dead. This was most likely not shown because it would just go a little too far for modern sensibilities.

First of all, thanks for a very good post on an interesting topic. I am curious, however, where these different outcomes have been proposed? Are they to be found in the ancient literature or in the works of modern scholars? Hi Klingan, As to the demise of Xanthippus at Lilybaeum, we have the reports of Diodorus(23.16). For his possible existence as a 'govenor' to Ptolemy III Euergetes, we must look to Jerome(Daniel XI.9) and for the most probable answer, one of him just sailing home, we have Polybius (I.36). In Polybius' account, he states that he has more information on Xanthippus that he would discuss at another time. I unfortunately have not come across it, if it exists, and would be interested to discover which of the other outcomes he might possibly corroborate.

You are correct, Nero did attempt something quite similar with his mother. To the 'demise' of Xanthippus, I don't see the real point in dealing him out in that manner, but I suppose that some could have had enough emnity towards him to enact that ploy. The romantic in me would like to believe that he received his Egyptian reward, but the realist thinks it was more likely a lonely death on a battlefield somewhere.

When the Hebrews left Egypt, they did so with a military wing that won some good victories all the way to Jericho and then beyond. Is it possible that when Joseph settled his brothers in Egypt he did it not only to help them, as the Bible says, but to allow them to bring their clans in to form a buffer "zone" between Egypt proper and whomever was troubling them at the time in Canaan, be it Assyria, Hittite, whomever? Could they later, after having become to strong, been put to labor in order to keep a scenario from forming, such as the Mexica and the Tapanecs in what is now Mexico...a subordinate mercenary force suddenly overthrowing the kingdom?

Apologies that I didn't see this being discussed, just a few threads down. My posed question at the end of the o/p is still valid, if anyone wants to comment.

In times of great stress, Carthaginian nobles would were said to sacrifice a child to fire in the name of the god Ba'al Hammon. Seeing as Carthage was a Phonecian colony, it is certainly plausible. Equally possible is the simple fact that it was all Roman propaganda to make their Mediterranean rival look barbaric. Another thought however, is perhaps the nobles each sacrificed a child to ensure that each member of the upper-class was "sacrificing" equally, so to speak. In a city without a king(I believe?), and only highly successful ruling families, is that simple theory one that should be considered?

In the basement of the archaeological site of Anemospilia, on the Isle of Crete, there was found the skeletal remains of 327 children. The bones were found scattered in a way that suggest simple discardment but upon examination show clear evidence of having been flayed. On the surface floors several skeletons in rubble suggest they were killed by an earthquake, however, on the alter is a skeleton, determined to be an 18 year-old maled who was so compacted that anthropologist determine he was trussed like a bull for sacrife. Examination of the bones and there discoloration also suggest that he died from blood-loss, with his killers dying moments later by the ensuing earthquake. Did these sacrifices, coupled with the bull-worship in Minoan culture actually give rise to the Myth of the Minotaur, and was this myth a possible first use of propoganda by mainland Greek city-states against the much older and established island nation of Crete?

Xanthippus of Carthage -"Just about this time there arrived at Carthage one of the recruiting-officers they had formerly dispatched to Greece, bringing a considerable number of soldiers and among them a certain Xanthippus of Lacedaemon, a man who had been brought up in the Spartan discipline, and had had a fair amount of military experience" (Polybius, 1.32.1). -"the Carthaginians, considering that their misfortunes were due to bad generalship, asked the Lacedaemonians to send them a commander. The Lacedaemonians sent them Xanthippus." (Appian, 3.2). -"... various allies came to the Carthaginians, among them Xanthippus from Sparta. This man assumed absolute authority over the Carthaginians, since the populace was eager to entrust matters to his charge and Hamilcar together with the other officials stepped aside voluntarily" (Zonaras, 8.13). Xanthippus is a man very little is known about. Recruited in Sparta by Carthaginian handlers in their quest to find aid against the Romans in the First Punic War, Xanthippus led a contingent of 500 Greek mercenaries to the far off lands. Upon arrival, Xanthippus was given complete control over all mercenary forces in the employ of Carthage, as well as the reduced and suffering Carthaginian war machine when battle with the Roman Consul, Marcus Atilius Regulus, seemed inevitable. Quickly noticing that the Carthaginians were not utilizing their cavalry and elephants properly due to a fear of open ground and the Roman foot soldier, Xanthippus quickly retrained and reorganized the way that each of these potentially devastating aspects of Carthage's military would be deployed. In addition, Xanthippus levied more citizen soldiers and ordered them trained in the current style of Greek phalanxes, and prepared them for the frontal assualt. His retraining and reorganizing of the soldiers under his command had them screaming to be led against the Romans, full of confidence in themselves and in their commander. According to Polybius, Regulus was coming to be agitated that another may soon be sent from Rome, and the glory of ending this conflict would fall to him. He was spoiling for a fight, that would soon be his. He would get his fight as Xanthippus marched his men into the open ground they so used to fear. The two forces lined up, and at the end of the day, Regulus was a prisoner of Xanthippus, and the Roman army was wiped out. For five years Regulus remained a "guest" of Carthage till he was paroled on the condition that he would seek peace in the Roman Senate. Upon his arrival to Rome, he denounced his parole and beseeched the Senate to continue fighting. Defeated yet honorable, Regulus was returned to Carthage to face his fate, execution by torture. Xanthippus on the other hand went on to a second victory for Carthage. Deploying to Lilybaeum, which was under siege by the Romans, Xanthippus led them in battle breaking the siege and scattering the Roman forces. From this point the fate of Xanthippus becomes murky. One of possibly three outcomes have been reported for him. The first, he simply returned to Greece, waiting for further conflict, and further payment. The second, he was sent home by jealous members of the citizenry of Lilybaeum, on a sabotaged vessel which sank, killing all aboard including Xanthippus. The third, and the one I would like to think was true, especially after his performance against Rome, was that he lived out his days as a Govenor for Ptolemy III Euergetes in a newly obtained province. Some friends of mine have postulated that perhaps Xanthippus never truly existed. The idea is that since the primary source of his accomplishments comes from Polybius, a pro-Roman Greek, he may have been fabricated to cover the idea of a loss to Carthage. Any thoughts?

One obai of Sparta that was not mentioned, was Neopolitae. This obai was created by Cleomenes III, in order to incorporate the newly enfranchised Spartiates due to his reforms. This brought the number to six until Amyclae gained a form of independence in the first century bce.

Lanista and Viggen, thank you very much.

The "Dorian Invasion", was thought by many scholars to have taken place, if at all, between the years 1300bce-1100bce. I say, "If at all", because the historicity of this invasion/ migration has never truly been substantiated. What is know is that during the aforementioned time period, Mycenaean culture, writing, and language disappeared from the historical records. It was surmised by Ancient Greek historians, that a cataclysmic event had taken place to remove these people. In order to come to terms with this they devised a history of the collapse, and that was the Return of the Heracleidae. The Heracleidae, legendary Kings of the Dorians, were the descendants of Heracles, and their connection to the Dorians through the King Aegimius, became the groundwork for this legend. ORIGIN In the Age of Heroes, Aegimius, King of the Dorians, was in conflict with a people from the region of Thessaly, known as the Lapithae. In this conflict, Aegimius and his people were doing quite poorly. As the Age of Heroes might imply however, there were still men of great renown walking the Earth, one of which was Heracles, spreader of joy or woe, depending on the prevailing wind of his ego. As a hero and demigod, for Heracles was the son of Zeus, leader of Greece's Pantheon of religious icons, Heracles had the ability to sway this conflict one way of the other. Making the decision to assist Aegimius, Heracles, according to legend, would set forth a chain of events that would change the landscape of not only Southern Greece, but of the entire Aegean as well, for with his aid, the Dorians were victorious, and King Aegimius was now in the debt of the mighty Achaean. To repay this debt, Aegimius gave one-third of all his land to Heracles, as well as promising to adopt Hyllus, Heracles son, as one of his heirs. Several years later upon the death of Heracles, Eurystheus, King of Tiryns and a Persiad(descendant of Perseus), sought to do away with any rivals to his ambitions in the Argolid, as well as the rest of Southern Greece. With Hyllus and his siblings being the great-great grandchildren of Perseus, just such a rivalry existed. Pursuing them feverishly out of Southern Greece, Eurystheus tracked the to Athens, where they had taken refuge. Staking all on a battle with the Athenians, Eurytheus' army was utterly defeated, and their King killed. It was at this point that Hyllus decided to make north, for the lands and men promised to him by the King of the Dorians, Aegimius. It is also of interest to note, that according to legend, Athens's defense of Hyllus and his siblings, as well as their belief that Heracles was buried at Athens, played a contributing factor in Athens not being conquered as the Dorians migrated south. When Hyllus arrive back with the Dorians, he was pleased to find that Aegimius's sons submitted to him completely, making him the King of the Dorians, a feat accomplished with no bloodshed, and on the complete strength of his father, Heracles', character and aid. In no time however, Hyllus was preparing to march on Southern Greece, now much of which was coming under the sway of the Pelopidae, or sons of Pelops. For three years Hyllus waited, as the Oracle at Delphi stated, "Wait for the third fruit", before taking the lands he believed were his by right. Upon reaching the Isthmus of Corinth, Hyllus found himself challenged to single combat by Echemus, King of Tegea. Quickly accepting, Hyllus quickly lost, dying at the Isthmus, his lands unclaimed. Having promised three generations of peace as a price for the single combat, Hyllus's Dorians returned to their lands to bide their time. Enter The Heracleidae At the culmination of the three promised generations of peace, the descendants of Heracles and Hyllus, Temenus, Cresphontes, and Aristodemus sought counsel with the Oracle in order to understand why the prophecy had gone unfulfilled. The Oracle informed them that the "third fruit" did not spaek to the number of years, but to the number of generations. Hearing this, the descendants of Heracles made preparation to retake Southern Greece, now known to us as the Peloponnese due to the rampant spread of the sons of Pelops over the region. As the Dorian forces moved out, one of the three, Aristodemus was killed at Naupactus by a lightning strike, or as was said at the time, struck by Apollo. This left his two sons, Procles and Eurythenes to take his place, and claim his lands. After some time, the "invasion" took place and all was staked on a single battle against the grandson of Agamemnon, Tisamenus. Sixty years after the sons of Atreus destroyed the great city of Troy, they too were wiped clean from the Heracleidae. The conquest had begun. Claim on Argos As members of the Persiad as well as the Heracleidae, for Heracles' mother was the granddaughter of Perseus, a legitimate hereditary claim could be made on this city and its' surrounding territories. It would fall on Temenus to govern the lands that were his by bloodline. Claim on Lacedaemon When Tyndareus, King of Sparta was overthrown by his brother Hipocoon, Heracles intervened, Killing the usurper and his sons. In doing this, Heracles had won the Kingship of Sparta by force of arms. Not being the type to settle in one place, Heracles placed Tyndareus back upon the throne in order that he may govern the territory for him. This gave a claim to the Heracleidae that the lands have always been theirs, only held in stewardship by the Pelopidae. To Procles and Eurysthenes would fall the dual leadership of this city and its' surrounding lands. Thus the dual Kingship of Sparta was born with the Houses of the Eurypontid and Agiad. Of the Dorian conquerors of the Peloponnese, this line would last the longest till 221bce and the Battle of Sallesia, where one King, Euclidias, would meet his fate, and another, Cleomenes III, would flee to Egypt, betrayal, and ultimately suicide. From this point on, the Kingship was abolished, Sparta became a quasi-republic, and the last known member of either of the royal line, a Eurypontid named ironically, Pelops, died in 206bce. Claim to Messenia Much like Lacedaemon, the question of stewardship arises in the lands of Messenia, and the city of Pylos. One story states that Heracles stormed Pylos, killing its' King Neleus and his sons due to their aid in the defense of Hipocoon, the Spartan usurper. Another states that after Heracles had murdered a man named Iphitus, he had asked both Hypocoon and Neleus to purify him of this blood debt, to which they refused making Heracles a mortal enemy. With Hipoccon now dead at his hands, Heracles sought out the other, Neleus, and upon killing him and all of his sons save Nestor, left, leaving Nestor as the sole candidate for a Kingship that, once again was won and abandoned by Heracles. The control of these lands, through the most spurious of the claims, would fall to Crestophanes. Of the three, this Kingship would fall first and Messenia would become the territory of the descendants of Procles and Eurysthenes, the Spartans. Malkin, I.(1994).Myth and Territory in the Spartan Mediterranean

In 368 bce, soldiers of the Arcadian league, consisting of cities formerly in the thrall of Sparta, and urged on by the Mantinean statesman, Lycomedes, decided to flex their collective muscle in raids across the Peloponnese. This was Lycomedes way of breaking from Thebes who, as he put it, was "Sparta in all but Name." Meeting with initial success by terrorizing communities that were still loyal to Sparta after her hegemony was shattered by Epaminondos at Luectra in 371 bce, the Arcadians decided to move in closer to Sparta, and confrontation. More bolder the Arcadians had become, capturing and killing Spartan garrisons at Pellene and Asine. Xenophon tells us of their progress,"Neither night, nor winter, nor distance, nor inaccessible mountains could stop their march, so that at a time, they thought themselves by far the most valiant soldiers in the world." These audacious attacks were met however, by Spartan wavering. Since the shameful defeat at Leuctra, it is said that the surviving Spartiates could not look their women in the eye, and Agesilaos himself had to rescind the Lykurgan punishment for "tremblers", the men who retreated from battle, due to the affect it might have on Spartan morale. It was for this reason, fear of another defeat, that the Spartans looked blindly in the opposite direction as the Arcadians marched through their territory. Into this mass of indecision walked Archidamos, son of Agesilaos. At Leuctra, Archidamos brought up reinforcements in an attempt to engage the Theban army, but was convinced by Jason of Pharae to turn back and support the retreat of Sparta and her allies. Nothing now however would stay his hand. Filled with rage, Archidamos convinced all that this was an insult that must, and would be met with force. His mission approved, Archidamos took the young men of Sparta, eager for their first taste of combat, as well as the survivors of Leuctra, eager only to clear the stain of their names on a mission deep into the heart of Arcadian lands. Backed by 2,000 Celtic mercenaries sent By Dionysios I of Syracuse to aid them in the event of Theban invasion, Archidamos sought out the Arcadians. Archidamos successfully marched into Arcadian lands meeting little to no resistance. At Karyai, the Spartans put all males to the sword, a vengeful bloodlust overcoming them, but with the decision to mover further in, Archidamos was suprised to be told by the leader of his Celtic mercenaries that the terms of their service was up and that they would be leaving Arcadian lands for Sparta, and home. The Celts however, were intercepted by Messenians on their return march and not knowing what to expect, anticipated the worst. Archidamos, deciding he could not push further in with the amount of troops at his disposal, decided to turn back, and head for Sparta. Shocked to find his former mercenaries being held back by a Messenian force, Archidamos retook control of the Celts and pushed towards the Messenians who, not being foolish, gave way. This however was for a specific reason as the Messenians soon linked up with a much larger army of Arcadian troops, reinforced by men of Argos. Archidamos realizing that any chance of retreat had been utterly cut off, and seeing in his Spartan's eyes, the fear of another Leuctra, roused their spirits with divine omens and a fiery speech, since lost to antiquity. Moved by their commander's words, the Spartans did not form phalanx and calmly march towards their foes, but broke into epidrome, or a suprise charge, which scattered the Arcadians and Argives, with few that had the mettle to meet them head to head. As the Arcadians and Argives retreated the Celts pursued with destructive force, with they and the Spartans killing 10,000 men without a single loss to either of their forces. The Arcadians would one day have their revenge, but on this day, for the Spartans, it truly was a Tearless Battle.

Yes but most of Asia minor at this time was Hellenized in culture. What I'm wondering is if the Galatians still had a degree of Celtic identity by the 1st Century AD. By 1st century AD? Probably none at all.

I just caught this film on pay-per-view, and was curious why it wasn't released in U.S. theaters. It was a far cry better than King Arthur and I was pleased a great deal. As said in an above post, it isn't ROME, but it was enjoyable. Next one I am waiting for, is Eagle of the Ninth.

I found this to be an interesting article and I thought I would share it. Alexander the Great Killed by Toxic Bacteria? http://news.discovery.com/history/alexande...t-bacteria.html

The view of a female gladiator is already being contested. http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/8252448....ims_inaccurate/

I posed the "Conthian villages" question on another forum, and one of the members, Sylla, pointed me to a Strabo quote that seemingly has some answers concerning the villages in Corinthia that may have been absorbed into the polis of Corinth.

Was the Canaanite warlord Labayu, mentioned in the Amarna letters the historical Saul? In the letters to Pharoah Akhenaton, Biridiya of Meggido complains that Labayu was attacking his lands; Meggido being in the Jazreel valley that Saul fought in. Abdu-Heba sends a request to Akhenaton for archers to fight off the Habiru, which some scholars believe may have been the original Hebrews, although this is not yet proven or disproven. Abdu-Heba sends a second letter stating that Labayu is slain and that his sons are taking cities of the King and giving them to the Habiru, and that he fears for the loss of his own city, U-ru-sa-lim (Jerusalem). Is the son of Labayu, David, and is Labayu, Saul. Some other interesting similarities: -The Name Labayu translates as "Great Lion of (god)". -Saul is referred to as the "great lion of Yhwh". -Psalm 57 also makes mention of Saul's men/ personal guard as lebaim'(lions). -Saul's son Ish-bosheth and Labayu's Son Mutbaal; both names translate as "man of baal". -Mutbaal then identifies three men in a latter Amarna letter, Dadua, Ayab, and Yishaya. If Mutbaal is actually the son of Saul, then these three names could be reconciled with David, Joab, and Yishai. -Saul and Labayu were both killed at Gilboa. Just too many interesting similarities to be just "thrown out with the bath water."

After the conclusion of the Peloponesian War, Sparta made an attempt at a sort of "Athenian Empire" by forcing all satellite states to acknowledge its suzerainty over the region. It primarily had to rely on Persian money to supply a navy and mercenaries commanded by Spartan generals to defeat Athens, but with that victory, Persia cut off funds in an effort to weaken Sparta and thus keep Greece fragmented. Could Sparta, with the way its society was structured, have found a way to maintain its leadership of Greece or was Agesilaus just reaching too far? Also, did Thebes, with its defeat of Sparta, seal the fate of Greece in regards to Macedon which marched in unfettered, against the Greek allies, unaided by a decimated Sparta?