Favonius Cornelius

I'm curious to hear more on lex Clodii and what its stipulations were. Tell us more about those groups he had with him. Just, this would still be situational politics under a situational leader. I would ask if these groups under Clodius had any staying power after him, because if not then they sort of come off as again clients under a politician with an agenda rather than the independent union. I seriously doubt Clodius had labor rights as his primary objective.

Timur was worse than Genghis and Kubali in terms of bloodlust? I figured they were all pretty much the same, what makes you say this? Hard to beat Genghis and his policy of total capitulation or total annihilation. Perhaps this fact, their total barbarity, and decidedly un-Christian religion, would have prevented the Byzantines from ever dealing with them.

There are many shades of gray in Rome's Republic when it comes to groups in my opinion. Would we then consider the clientele of an important businessman also to be a 'union'? All depends on how you make the definition. If you make the definition of a union to be a group formed for the express purpose of promotion of the group's political aims and improved working conditions, I'm afraid they just did not exist for a variety of reasons. I think one of those reasons was the patron-client networks that cemented relations between workers and patrons. As far as Clodius and his gang...well that is what they were, a gang organized by a politician and not by the people. I don't see what worker's group they could have represented.

Who is 'Gordianus the Finder'?

Glad to hear it Scipio! A fellow Cornelius is always welcome.

They did not have much in the way of unified political groups. They did form unions after a fashion, but the only ones we know of deal with making sure your body is disposed of well after you die, burial collectives. I bet there were collectives that cooperated certainly, but the guild I believe largely was a medieval creation.

Crystal clear and very nicely done. New York? Isn't that England?

We know that Cato the Elder and Cicero spoke ill of them, and during various times during the imperial period some emperors made attempts to control the influence of 'fortune tellers and astrologers.' These fortune tellers and astrologers are indeed a seperate breed of diviners, but during those times I would not be suprised if also the haruspices suffered some negative. On the whole I agree, they were indeed respected, but I think there were elements in Rome which did not like their influence, most probably augurs and other high ranking members of the Roman aristocracy. (For example with Cato, a man who scorned anything outside of Roman culture, and Cicero a proud augur!)

With Ursus and his thread on the Etruscans, I felt that it would be appropriate to also speak of of the haruspices, which were a somewhat unofficial part of the Roman state cult and yet were tied to the official augurs and can be said to have been the predecessor to the augur. The Etruscan civilization was a deeply religious one, and a fundamental part of of their religion was divination, the determination of the will or thoughts of the gods through a worldly medium. The most popular method of divination by the haruspex was that of inspection of entrails, though they also watched the world for a variety of other signs such as the flights of birds. Distinct areas of an animal's liver (usually a goat or some other small animal) related to different aspects of a particular point of question, and the condition of these areas could reveal the favor or disfavor of a thing. One great archaeological find was this haruspex stone which outlined the various areas important to divination, giving us a priceless glimpse into the exact formulae behind the rites. The haruspices were a college of their own much like the pontiffs or augurs of Rome, but outside the state cult, who's numbers were restricted to 60 across the known world. Eturia, homeland of the Etruscans, was located north of Rome. After Rome's expansion into all of Italy, Etruria became of great value to students of religion in Rome. Sons of important families who were destined by hereditary right to assume the position of augur would study in Etruscan cities such as Caere with the local haruspices and learn from them the proper methods of divination. Though they played such an obviously important role in Rome's religion, the haruspices as a group were not formally recognized as a part of the Roman state cult until the time of Emperor Claudius. Perhaps this could be seena as a power play by the Republican Rome, afraid to give such power to a people at one time dominant over Rome. The relation however between the haruspices and the augurs, like so many other aspects of early Rome, clearly shows the imprint of Etruscan influence. In times when the Sibylline books and inherited religious knowledge did not offer the proper course of action for a given situation, the haruspices were consulted, almost a nod to the patronal origins of Roman religion. Haruspices were often popular with individuals who could not use the state functions of religion to satisfy their need to know the will of the gods, and were consulted frequently. Sometimes their influence was too much for some leaders of state and their freedom was curbed or their reputation soiled as with Cato the Elder. Their influence lived on, and indeed it is said that the soothsayer who warned of Caesar's demise on the Ides of March was none other than a haruspex.

At the age of 29, I get to look forward to facing something I should have dealt with a decade ago. I am getting my two upper wisdom teeth pulled this Thursday. Anyone have any bad experiences with this? I am not looking forward to this...

Could be Ursus. The man knows quite a lot about it that's for sure, but he seems to take on some anti-established opinions about things. If you continue on with the discussion I think you will see he disavows all influence from the Etruscans which I cannot agree with. He also believed that early Christanity had homosexual roots and that Julius Caesar was actually a poor general. Clearly unhinged.

It seems remarkable to me that even to this day a language can remain so unknown. I had a long arguement with this guy at Ancient Worlds who claimed that early Rome had nothing to do with Etruscans. What do you think of it: http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/362447

I think I remember reading about the use of metal orbs heated with hot coals, applied to distinct parts of the body while held with tongs or some such.

I must still admit complete ignorence to what your point is with this Kishido stuff Osander. If you are so confident in its relevance, then I imagine you should be able to concisely describe to us how it relates to telling us what the Roman warrior code was. Frankly all I am hearing from you so far is a bunch of sophistic eastern gobbledigook. Perhaps that is the foolish westerner in me, but I figure most things in life should be able to be explained in a few sentinces. I'm not going to have to light incense to understand this am I? The stuff makes me sneeze... (just kiddin)

I think that there is an extra dimention to the Roman facination of the forum concept that you maybe have missed. While you are completly right in the utility and the show-off features of these forums, the forum was also a fundamental part of the Roman city life. Romans were far more social creatures I think than many other peoples, and their socialization took on a city aspect of course. Think of the Roman domus and villas. Even these smaller structures had a 'forum' of their own, the atrium, with the adjoining rooms which could be construed to be as residential and commertial districts. Romans needed a place to congregate, because without it they were not Romans. It ties into the roots of the Republican political system where communication was a must for the function of the state, and the concept did not die even by Trajan's time.

Wow, it is indeed suprising that PEZ is Austrian. My worldview is forever altered...

"I find a common strand that goes hand in hand with monotheism is intolerence to other religions. Usually in monotheistic religions there is a 'truth' included within the religion. If that religion is 'true' then everything else is 'false'" This is quite true. One of the hidden strengths of polytheism is their willing acceptance of other gods, as with the Roman religion in countless instances.

Lol quite true. At least the animal sacrifices would be a piece of cake though. No clean up: to do so could insult the goddess and she could clog your plumbing.

And anyway, it was created after WWII, so how does it relate at all to this discussion?

Hello, my name is Favonius, and I am a Romanoholic.

I don't like the fact I'm not a Patrician, you can feel free to change that too. I agree. The first thread seems to be too much of a catchall though. I wonder if we could somehow find a way to split it in two.

Looking at that nifty spread of centurion types, you guys could possibly have quite a few more steps before going to the high ranks (ie Hastatus Prior Hastatus Posterior et cetera). Also 'Princepales' seems to be the name for a group of officers and not a specific one?

It would seem we have a new usergroup: Slaves. What does it take to be placed in that one?

Heh, odd thing to say. Reminds me of the Chinese curse: 'may you live in interesting times.'

I might change 'The Elysium' as it is right now to just 'Elysium.' Splitting hairs I know but it just sounds better I think.