Hamilcar Barca

This website is designed to be a broad overview of Roman history or as I believe Primus states, "A stepping stone to further study" (or something along those lines). However, you'll find that most of the people at this forum have a vault of knowledge that goes way beyond anthing which you see posted on the website itself, because quite simply, there is so much to discuss. Just because it isn't formally written up, it doesn't mean that the site operators are unaware of it.

I'm mainly reading it for its scholartistic value and, just to say I've read it. In any case it is very interesting and no detail on anything is spared but his therories regarding the Byzantines are definitley dated, he shows very little respect and seems to think of them as a desolate, stagnant sideshow.

It is interesting that he did have those figures because his actual write up of Ilipa was very brief and uninformative. edit* When I said Cassius Dio I meant Appian, sorry.

Hard to say, it was more of a gradual process than any singular event. Cannae onwards basicly saw Hannibal run out of steam while the Romans stepped up a notch and suddenly had nothing but competent military commanders. Furthermore, several prime opportunities were passed up to reinforce Hannibal, best example been in 211BC when the Scipio's were defeated at Iliorci and Castulo. The more famous example though is when Hasdrubal and his army were checked at the Metaurus by Nero. But after Cannae, the war in Italy changed dramatically. Instead of actively engaging Hannibal, the Romans worked towards recapturing the Italian cities which had defected to him. These cities all had their own separate agendas and despite Hannibal

Good stuff Skanderberg, always enjoyable to read. On the topic of casualties, Cassius Dio recorded 15,000 Carthaginians falling at Ilipa in contrast to 800 Romans; However, its hard to say how reliable these figures are or what they're based on. It seems most of the army was slaughtered after they retreated a few days latter; Livy claims only 4,000 men including Hasdrubal survived afterwards.

Roman history up until the mid 3rd Century BC is not paticulary well documented, your best bet is Livy, but he should be treated cautiously. What kind of figures are you talking about? Also, what do you mean by "comebacks", they won those battles like you said. How do you make a comeback after already winning?

Haven't red Rubicon yet, need to though. Still getting through Gibbon with "The Byzantine Wars" by John Haldon on the side for a more leisurely read.

Yes, but Marc Antony never did take power. This isn't a hypothetical topic.

Wow, thats some nice posting there Primus

Indeed, but what is indisputable is that both men were charismatic, brilliant leaders whose military and tactical knowledge was the inspiration and envy of countless generals in the millenia to come. However, as Maharbal mused at Cannae, "Hannibal, you know how to win a victory, but not how to use one". Hamilcar on he other hand capitalised on any success he achieved, no matter how small it was. It was such a trait that allowed him ultimate victory over the Mercinaries. Now if both men had led the war against Rome along with the tag team brothers, Hasdrubal and Mago ... but yes we will never know.

No I'm sure your right Lynch, since starting this topic I went and looked up to see what the movie was about myself. My source was a friend who knows virtually nothing about history and asked me "You'll be seeing that new movie about the 3rd Crusade right?", I then went and brought it up here without doing any reserach first.

Thanks for the feedback guys. But yes, if the Truceles war never happened, history may have unfolded radically different. I think that the 2nd Punic War would still have enevitabley come about but it may not of happened for another 50 years or so. What is also intersting to contemplate is how the 2nd Punic war would have turned out if Hamilcar had not been assassinated. These is almost a parallel between Hamilcar and Hannibal and the likes of of Phillip and Alexander.

Forward: I wasn't sure about sticking this up here but Skanderberg somewhat encouraged me by putting up one of his own write-ups. The bloody conflict known as The Truceless War 241BC-237BC, fought between Carthage and it's mercinary armies following the first Punic War is one of the lesser known conflicts fought in the ancient world, mainly on behalf of the fact that all Carthaginian accounts were likely destroyed along with the city in 146BC. However, Polybius' account of the war did survive and I have used it as my primary source in sumarising this conflict and its key battles for anyone who is interested. The key figure brought to prominance as a result of the eventual Carthaginian victory was Hamilcar Barca, father and mentor of Hannibal. Hamilcar's ultimate victory allowed him to completley re-organise the mercinary armies and also secure a foothold in Spain which would prove to be Carthage's greatest military resource. The Truceless War 241BC

O, ok. My sources for the movie were obviously incorrect.

O yeah, I'm sure I'll see it in any case, I was just wondering if anyone had seen it yet. By the way the $12 is in $NZ and the movie is apprantly set in the 3rd Crusade, the one with Saladin and Richard I.

Goldsworthy refers many times to Polybius in his books as a key reference. I think that he simply interpretted: as the testudo, after all the testudo does indeed involve "locking shields over the head". Goldsworthy is probably just making an educated asumption. As for the whole naked Gauls thing, it's easily possible. The Gaesatae Tribe who fought at the battle of Telamon only 9 years earlier stripped bare-ass naked, apparantly in an attempt to intimidate the Romans with their Manliness.

Has anyone seen Ridley Scotts new historical epic "Kingdom of Heaven"? I don't want to see it if it's anything like Troy or other such trash.

Yes, Cognomen titles were awarded when ever a general conquered a people, at least if the senate saw for fit for it.

Rome along with the rest of Italy and its islands (duh) Athens (going in June) Instanbul (going in June) Tunis Cologne, Germany Southern France Switzerland Belgium Dubai

Nice work Scanderberg, as a religous fanatic of all the the Punic War campagins I thouroughly enjoyed your retelling of Carthago Nova. I always did like this story and do indeed think it is a great example of Scipio's charismatic persona and leadership. Carthago Nova also serves as one of the most famous examples of when the Rampart Crown Corona Vallaris, (the decoration earned by the first man to scale an enemy fortification) was awarded. In this case, Scipio had claims from both the legions and the fleet that one of their men had been the first to scale the walls. Ultimately Scipio awarded both men the crown.

Goldsworthy indicates in his The Complete Roman Army that the Italian ala (wings) of the Punic war era were armed and armoured in the same sense as the Roman legionary. He goes on to note that an ala consisted roughly of the same number of men as a legion (4,200 men at this time), however they usually had three times the number of cavalry so this would be about 900 horse. The ala legion was then sub-divided into cohorts, however it is unclear to what extent that these were tactical units, how many there were to each ala and whether they were of a fixed size. It is likely that this was just a vague term meaning contigent which referred to all the troops provided by a single Latin colony, this seemed to have been around 400-600 men. In a consular army of the Punic war era, there were two ala, right and left, which flanked the legions in the centre. Each ala was commanded by three prefects Praefecti sociorum who were invariably Roman citizens.

If you read this thread through you would know that the Gothic heavy cavalry were not the only factor dictating against the Romans.

Yes I thought Commodus and Valens would be firm candidates, Commodus started the decline and Valens pretty much nailed it home. I've been reading Gibbons masterpiece the last few months and it really is a fantastic scholary work.

What do people think on this. I decided to make this inclusive of all Romans, not just the Emperors.

Nice pic, Crecy is up there in my favorite battles of all time but I think either Agincourt (1415) or Kleidon (1014) clinch it for me. Basil II and Henry V were legends.