Pavlos

haha funny you should mention "the fourth crusade and the sack of constantinople" i actually have the book, even though i have not gotten around to reading it and i forgot to put it on the list! thanks for reminding me.

Ok, im trying to compile a list of all the best books that a person should read in order to educate himself on byzantium, the world round byzantium, byzantiums influence, and byzantine religion/politics/entertainment/medicine/military/everyday life. heres a list so far of all that i know of, some of which i have read, please add more to the list, and possibly give a short descripition if it is a hard to find book. thanks : ) 1. Byzantium - John Julius Norwich (3 Volume Set) 2. The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium 3. 1453 - Roger Crowley 4. Constantinople - Jonathan Harris 5. Byzantium - Stephen R. Lawhead (fiction but gives a good perspective on everyday life in the empire) 6. Sailing From Byzantium - Colin Wells 7. The Alexiad - Anna Comnena 8. The Mountain of Silence - Kyriakos Markides (great explanation of mount athos and the history/teachings of the orthodox church) 9. The Orthodox Church - Timothy (Kallistos) Ware - first half of the book is just history, very interesting actually. I know there are manny more books that can be added to this list, lets see if we can get a nice list, thanks for the help.

Istanbul comes from the greek "IS TIN POLI" the "P" somtimes pronounced "B" (even though thats technically not correct pronunciation), "toward/to the city". people often called Constantinople "the city" and when asked where they were going would say "to the city" or "is tin poli". Anatolia is also a greek word simply meaning "east" or "eastern".

I agree utterly with Honorius' points here - but from the point of view of an atheist. During the period 650 - 900 one sees a constant shrinkage of Byzantine territory, with a corresponding haemmorhage in its treasury. I cannot help but think this damage was caused partially by this useless and pointless conflict. It remains a constant mystery to me why such useless yet damaging conflicts about minor religious differences have occurred throughout history - and continue to do so. Well, I see what your saying, and to be honest I thought the exact same way (im not an atheist far from it actually) but I never understood how stupid little differences caused so many problems. On the Icon issue, many people of the time thought that icons were idol worship, and I can see where they are comming from. I recently read into it, however, and found out what we orthodox truly believe about icons. we dont worship the wood or the paint or the image on the icon. we dont even worship the person IN the icon. (exept if it its jesus or god), we use icons as a form of rememberance of the lives of those depicted and we decorate our churches and homes with the icons to remind us of the lives of the saints, and to remind us to pray. the images we use are of the byzantine style (no renaissance images that are realistic portrayals of people) which depict a loose interpretation of the imahge of the person not a realistic representation. there is a great explanation of icons in the book "The Mountain of Silence" and "The Orthodox Church". In chapter 6 of "The Mountain Of Silence", Fr. Maximo compares icons with photos you take with a camera. he explains that when you take a picture of a loved one, and you hold the picture to be dear to you, it is not worshiping the person in it. if for example your mother or your wife dies and you have her picture with you and you kiss the picture before you go to sleep or anything like that your still not worshiping the person. the same with icons. we see icons as spiritual "pictures" of saints or jesus or god, that remind us of their lives. there is much more to say on this subject but i think i have covered the main points, i guess the reason for iconoclasm was in fact lack of understanding on the part of the iconoclasts. any thoughts on this?

How was it?

I agree about it being destructive, but i dont know if i agree that it helped to switch thought from clerical to classical as someone said, ive always heared and read that eastern monks differed from western in that western were often highly educated but also the onlye ones in the society that were highly educated or even just plain educated other than the royalty. a common western scenario would be the lord being educated to some degree, the lay peopl being illiterate, and the monks/preists/bishops being well educated and preaching that they are he only ones who know what god wants and they are the only ones who know the truths. this contrasts eastern orthodox (im using the work orthodox even though that was not until after the great schism becuase i find it easier to think about in those terms) becuase in byzantium there was a far larger group of people that were educated and could write and read. So in my opinion, monks and clergy had less of an influence on how peolple thought in byzantium than in the west. i dont know how accurate the descriptions i have given you of the west are, but i have read that in several books, so im assuming its what was happening. any thoughts?

yea, i mean, the place was greek from the start and from what i have read greek was common as well as latin, but yea like you said was not official until 610.

Ok, I dont know how many others are orthodox (christian) here, but what are your thoughts on Iconoclasm? I know icons were once abundantly used but now only really used in the orthodox worship, what do you guys think? was iconoclasm a "westernized" form of worship? does anyone still feel that the use of icons is "idol" worship? i know the orthodox standpoint, but what are some other views? and do you think iconoclasm was beneficial or destructive to byzantium? i believe it was. thoughts?

I wonder if the tide would have turned if the byzantines had used greek fire on mehmets ships BEFORE he crossed them itno the golden horn?

to be honest i would say that it was when the capital moved to constantinople, that it became byzantium becuase byzantion (in roman byzantium) was the real name of constantinople. but i think that people outside called the empire byzantine after 610, when it went 100% greek. im not 100% sure though its a very good question.

Currently reading "Knights of the Black and White" and its very interesting, before that I read "The Orthodox Church" and before that the first volume of John Julius Norwich's "Byzantium" called "The Early Centuries". I recommend all of these, they are really interesting.