Melvadius

Phys Org is carrying this report on results of recent landscape analysis using satellite photographs into the area surrounding Ancient Palmyra:

Personally I don't go for tattoos but if you are intending using a Heraldic image associated with your family name then messing about with either the family crest or the associated motto is a really BAD idea. The next thing you know the College of Heralds will be round demanding you get it corrected or rather since it is to do with Scottish heraldry it will be a representative from The Court of the Lord Lyon.

I did a search for myself and most of the top-rated hits came up as UNRV or else related to some articles I wrote for another site several years ago. However I discovered that at least one article on Roman helmets has been lifted entirely and with some added illustrations placed onto another site. OK I did grant copyright for non-commercial use with the original posting, I have been cited as the author and the aditional illustrations separately credited but it is a bit of a suprise to find such material where I don't expect it. Which leads on to complete confusion about precisely which quirk of sloppy programming has meant that a similarly sourced article about visiting Herculaneum is automatically tied into search results for things like 'Find a guitar teacher in Herculaneum, Missouri'

The Greek reporter is carrying this short report on recent underwater archaeological work around Skiathos leading to finds from several different periods. This includes mention near the end of the report of Roman and Byzantine shipwrecks:

I think that you never can be too careful and all in all possibly it is much better to be well prepared as this item from the BBC posted 8 June 2012 shows.

Good point in fact the Loeb 1928 edition of On Superstition by Plutarch also makes several references to the use of 'beaten' drums including the fact that '...tigers, they say, surrounded by the sounds of beaten drums go utterly mad...' This level of noise would seem to indicate a familiarity and therefore probable existence and use of drums within the Empire which could produce a somewhat louder sound level than would be possible from simply tapping a tamborine. It does make me wonder given the way in which the border swept back and forward over the area several times during the Roman period if auxilliary units raised in the Eastern provinces may also have made use of beaten drums for signalling or at least entertainment. It also make me wonder about precisely what is intended to be represented by some of the items which are seen lying scattered around in the West Wall mural from the Dura-Europos synagogue.

Correct, over to you Jeroen

Limes Tripolitanus it is, also facing the Garamantes, although not Gholaia.

eborius I would refer you back to your original statement '...there is NO evidence for the use of drums ANYWHERE in the Roman world.' I would just point out that by writing in the second century AD within part of the Roman empire the Dionysus passage would seem to indicate the the use of drums WAS known and to some extent probably used within the Roman world even if not noticably within the military of the 'Principate' period - by some arguments used elsewhere on this site Byzantiuum was STILL the Roman world. I will grant that the use of specific drum forms including those developed in the Renaissance were not part of your original statement so if that is what you wish to discuss it maybe better addressed in a separate thread.

If you have a specific complaint about a posting then please address it via PM to any of the legatii or triumviri or this can be done automatically for offensive postings by clicking on the appropriate warning icon [it says 'Report'] on the bottom left-hand side of the posting. Please note that generally a sideways thought as part of a longer postings is not usually seriously enough off-topic to be dealt with in this way. Even if it does goo too far off-topic for the main fora it can sometimes be moved at at anyones request to another more general area providing it is not offensive.

The basic issue that any archaeologist is all too aware of is that 'absence of evidence' although possibily indicative is not necessarily conclusive 'evidence of absence'. However you define it 'drum' is not a term which the Roman world used and those it did use can and have been interpreted in a variety of ways. Agreed that often tympana is equated to tabmorines but on current evidence we cannot be 'totally' certain of this interpretation. The following quote, adapted from R.Shepherd (1793) translation of the 2nd C AD Macedonian Polyaenus: Stratagems - BOOK 1, Chapters 1-26, indicates one interpretation which seems to ahve been made but I have been unable to determine if it is replicated in more modern tranlations:

Its not a very good image since it keeps freezing and jumping on this PC. I had to go with the best image I could capture after several attempts but this may give you some idea of why I found the video funny...

My fault I lifted the reference from someone I have usually found fairly reliable A correction is rarely off topic.

I can't resist posting this item linking to a short video on the BBC learning zone. Although really aimed at young children there are actually a couple of interesting photographs of actual Roman period toys on the BBCs primary history website here I also found references on several (dare I say 'less' academic sites) to the Romans playing with a range of games which I suspect, even more than Caldrail indicates may have been the 'norm', would have been very unusual indeed including 'kites'. I really would like to know the origin of that particular claim.

That may have been one aspect but toys may normally have been made out of perishable materials (mainly wood and cloth dolls from the late 19th/ earlier 20th century are a good example) so will have tended to survive poorly in the archaeological record. In this context catastrophic destruction events like that at Pompeii and Herculaneum while preserving some aspects of daily life will not have made recognisable toys survival any easier. There is also the possibility that some of what have been listed as 'votive' items were originally childhood toys which were either mis-classified or had a later votive function.

THe short answer is yes they did unfortunately they tend not to be mentioned very often or only passingly in most of my reference books even the ones dealing with the Roman families since those I have collected were on the legal status of the familia. From memory a lot of museums I have visited carry a few items of childers toys on display. As you may expect these include dolls toy animals (sometimes dogs, ponies or oxen pulling carts), toy swords (and armour?) and various other items which allowing for differences of materials and being hand made would not look too far out of place in a modern childs toy box. A lot of gaming items have been found, while some would have been used by adults, they could equally well ahve been used by children. Knucklebones and dice were used for gambliing games, balls and other items used for sports and varoious board games have been found the forerunners of backgammon amongst them. I did find one appropriate reference from Roman literature to childrens games in an extract from Seneca, The Constancy of the Wise Man 11.2, 12 in The Roman Household a Sourcebook by Gardner and Wiedeman and subsequently found an on-line version of here. (The quote can be found on the sixth page in the second paragraph):

Your now in the right country but WAY too close to the coast.

I tend to take a broader view of the 'Magic' which is really a melange of periods, culture, sights, smells, sounds and tastes. While Roman is my first joy I can't pick and choose one historic period over another I enjoy aspects of them all as in the other aspects of Italy. In addition to the 'human' personal losses I am sad about the inevitable loses to the material culture which can occur with any major earthquake.

Probably with modern education nowadays you would be equally out of luck asking about the 1745. The tweeters amongst them would immediately ask what was happening at quarter to six. Seriously it probably depends who you are asking and more importantly if they understand the context of the question. I think we did get a short session on the Young Pretender when I was at primary school One of the major issues in the UK now is that at best history is only taught in individual modules and IIRC that period isn't really covered until 5th or 6th years in secondary school when a lot of pupils had already dropped history as a subject.

Ron this thread effectively closed down a year ago.

Ted, Thanks for posting further updates on your project. It's good to see you back again even if under a new sign-on.

There was no indication until now that you wished to restrict discussion to 'fully skinned' drums. As already stated there is ample evidence for the presence and use of tympanum within the Roman world which means they would probably have been known about to some within the Roman military even if not directly used in military contexts. BTW the Roman terms for drummers which you also queried are: Pitulus : drummer on ships used to set the pace for the rowers Tympanarios : drummer; attested in the Byzantine army.

From a quick hunt the article may be Carlisle: Excavation of a Section of the Annexe Ditch of the First Flavian Fort, 1990 by I.D. Caruana in Britannia November 1992 23 : pp 45-109.

Welcome and nice to meet you too Belisarius - have fun.

I would tend to agree that there is no hard evidence for the use of drums in the military however there is a lot of pictorial evidence for something which could be a hand drum being used in civilian dance settings. The question mark is over whether the tympanum was simply a Roman tamborine as some contend or due to it's size in several mosaic and other depictions if it could also have been played like the Irish bodhran as a hand drum. By extension if it could be played in this way and with the mix of cultures and lifestyles in the Roman military then it is just about conceivable that even if not widespread the use of 'drums' could have crept into use in some units. However this is speculative and not verifiable so I will probably continue to quietly snigger at the Hollywood depctions of massed drummers until proven otherwise