GhostOfClayton

Did anything ever come of a 2009 UK meet?

Glad the 2008 meet went well, and am looking forward eagerly to the reports, photos, etc. As for 2009 . . . if it's of any use to you, I do a Guided Tour of Lincoln (Lindum Colonia, former Legionary Fortress, Colonia, and Provincial Capital) with a strongly Roman bias. There's a full day's worth of stuff to see, and could probably stretch it out a little. I put my services at your disposal, if you're interested.

I bet you all thought this topic was dead in the water, didn't you? My fault, as I've been working and hence away. Sorry about that. I did get to see the Sites & Monuments Register for Countess Close, and spent a very pleasant few hours going through it with its Custodian at the Museum (many thanks to him for his excellent help.) However, the evidence pretty much mounted up against myself and William Stukeley, I'm afraid, and the Sites & Monuments Custodian persuaded me against its Roman origins. I'll have to settle for the Romano British Ladder Settlement that runs along the escarpment southward from the site. Not as exciting, but it's something. Thanks to all who gave help and opinions.

I'm back at the ranch for a few days before trotting off up to Northumberland on Saturday to start another Hadrian's Wall Tour, so I thought I'd have a quick look in on the Forum see how everyone's getting on. I'm still fairly certain I can't come to the 2008 UK meet (though there is a faint hope!), but I'd be fascinated to know your itinerary for the weekend. . . . Oh, and if anyone's planning to visit a Hadrian's Wall site next week, let me know.

Hey AC. Do you have a provisional itinerary?

Please ignore this posting.

Sorry about the 'down-time'. I've been out and about, but am now firmly back-at-the-ranch until Christmas. Glad to see this topic has been quite active in my absence, though perhaps not in an encouraging way from my own point of view (come on! Who on this forum wouldn't want a Roman Fort on their doorstep?) The evidence is turning against my earlier theory, but I do have some little snippets that might just breath a bit of life back into the debate. There are some things for me to do: Firslty, I must try to get a look at the local sites and monuments register - I'll let you know what I find. Secondly, I'll establish the acreage of the site. The map isn't brilliant in this respect, so I'll get out with my GPS this weekend. Thirdly, thanks Melvadius for noticing it in Pevsener. I hadn't thought to look there - I assumed he'd be bogged down by Julian's Bower, and not notice the earthworks next door. I should have been tipped off when I found Stukeley had discovered it. However, that leads to another quandry, though one which may be easier to solve. The southern embankment was replaced recently under the same project as the archeology (details to follow), and a gap was incorporated. My next job is to find out why. I also found the following PDF on the www: www.planning.northlincs.gov.uk/PlanningReports/NorthLincolnshireLocalPlan/Inset01Alkborough.pdf. Countess Close is at LC11 / HE8, just southwest of the housing. This clearly shows gaps in the earthworks, North, South and East. Also, where it doesn't show earthworks (on the west), is where there is a hint of the parallel earthworks. I'll have a closer look at the topography when I go out this weekend.

Having now completed the Hadrian

Sorry . . forgot to ask. Caldrail, have you a map reference for Okus?

Thanks for all your input. I have more questions. As far as distances to other forts are concerned, I

The key question must be: If two trenches draw a blank, is that sufficient to rule out a Roman presence? If yes, then the rest of my speculations are academic. You can find Countess Close located at SE 879 216. Go to "www.ordnancesurvey.gov.uk", and enter 'Alkborough' into the 'View Maps Online' field. Click on the Earthworks below the maze, and it should zoom to a 1:25 000. For a closer look, you can Print/Save/Copy, and cut and paste the image into (say) PowerPoint. You can then zoom in to an impressive level of detail. My (extremely amateur) thoughts are mainly based on the location, and needless to say are all very circumstantial. We are two or three miles to the west of Winteringham (which is the actual Northern terminus of Ermine Street, and is reputed to have been an important Roman crossing point of the Humber.) I would rule out a marching camp, as Alkborough (unlike Winteringham) would be very much the 'end of the line'. I feel a camp/fort would be placed here to protect something, rather than as a refuge for Legionaries. The nearest Roman fort south of the Humber that I can find evidence of (on the Internet!) is 15 miles away, just north of Humberside Airport. Is that far enough away? So what was there here to protect? The local Museum Society have been very active in the Alkborough area, and (from the impressive number of finds they've unearthed,) so were the Romans. There's strong speculation about a trading post about half a mile further north, and a villa to the East. Running south from Countess Close was an old trackway which, though likely to predate Roman occupation, was almost certainly used by the Romans. Look carefully at the 50m contour just North of Countess Close. There is a small re-entrant which may or may not be naturally formed. Certainly it's dissimilar to other naturally formed features. The trackway leading from there used to lead to a small haven used by shipping until (can't remember the dates here, but after the middle ages). Was this in use by the Romans to serve the trading post? No-one knows. In 1931, a pot containing a small hoard of Roman coins was dug up just to the south at Walcot Hall. Might that be significant? The shape of the earthwork on the OS 1:25 000 map is deceptive, and hidden by tree cover on Google Earth. On the ground, it's more convincing. The surviving (and I use that word in its loosest sense) earthwork is on the western edge. This seems to consist of two earth banks. The next question, therefore, is: are twin earth banks a Roman design? Geophys of the field immediately south of Countess Close showed several pottery kilns, and much Roman activity. Next question then, would a small camp/fort, like Countess Close, support a Vicus? The main entrance to the camp was on the north side. If there were a Vicus would it automatically be on the side of the main entrance? Combined with the presence of the Trent/Ouse/Humber confluence, I can't help thinking that there must've been a fort around here somewhere. And if you were going to put a fort round here, strategically, that's where you'd put it. Then again, that's also where you'd put a fortified medieval manor house. But you'd especially put your manor house there if there were existing earthworks to make use of. I could go on at length in this vein, and sadly get nowhere. As [our] AugustusCeasar pointed out, however (thanks, AC), you only have to look to Birdoswald to find a precedent. Water would be readily available in the form of either Kell Well (a spring about a kilometer south, but at about the same height, anbd also Low Wells, (closer, but at least 10-15m below.) How would the Roman's have moved the water? Would an aquaduct be a tad over the top here? Views welcomed.

Does anyone know of a real expert on Roman Forts? I live almost on top of a site (Countess Close), which was always reputed to be a small Roman fort or camp. Recently, however, a couple of trenches were dug, no Roman artefacts were uncovered, and it was then assumed to have been a fortified medieval manor house. Now, I certainly don't want to cast any doubt on the skill and knowledge of the Archaeologists involved, I'm in no position to do that. However, I just get the feeling that the 'Roman Fort' theory was dismissed too quickly for my liking. It shared so many characteristics of Roman Forts that I've come across elsewhere. I'd love to have a chinwag with someone that really knows their onions, fort-wise, if only to put the subject to bed.

Well . . . June/July's likely to be hot on the heels of a Wall tour, so it'd very much depend on me convincing " 'er indoors". But, put me down as a 'probable', and I'll start working on her now. What would be a good Latin translation of " 'er indoors"?

Thanks very much, Nephele. I could certainly have done a darn sight worse than Macrobius as a namesake. Being the Praefectus Praetorio of Spain sounds like a cushy little number for him. Have you thought of assigning Roman jobs to Forum Members to go with their names? If so, that'll do for me.

Very nice work, Nephele. You're obviously one sharp cookie, and I'm suitably impressed. Now we each need to do one more thing: You need to tell me the (full) name of the painting, and I need to think of a devilishly clever mystery prize, which doesn't involve posting something a very long (judging by your 'from' entry) way. I'm not tight with money, you inderstand. I'm just concerned about the environmental impact of all those air miles (honest!) PS Go on . . . tell me how you knew.

Actually, expanding this "whistle-stop-weekend" tour idea might be worth thinking about. Hadrian's Wall is the obvious place, because of the sheer density of Roman sites, but can anyone think of other areas that might suit this format? Provence springs to mind, but in an ideal world, I'd be looking for UK sites.

Please don't do that to me, Pertinax. My heart was in my mouth for a second. Fortunately, my current plan is to run this weekend on the 20th and 21st October, and a quick Google reveals that the Great North Run isn't until the back end of September. Phew! By the way, do you know anything about Westgate Road Milecastle?

Okey Kokey, Nephele. My name doesn't have too many letters, but see what you can do with: somcerabuk And I'm (masculine cough) male.

The Forum on www.hadrians-wall.info seems to have gone the same way as the Roman Empire (and I don't mean overrun by barbarians). Presumably, it's been absorbed into this one. I posted something there a few days ago, and heard nothing, so I'll post it here, and see what happens. I'll be taking a small group of historians (no particular Roman bias) on a weekend "whistle-stop" tour of the wall sites, etc. in October. I've put together an itinerary, and I would welcome comments, especially where I'm trying to cram too much in. They will already have walked the National Trail between Chesters, Housesteads and Carvoran, so I've left out those sites. Saturday Arbeia (South Shields) Segedunum Newcastle Museum of Antiquities Westgate Road Milecastle Benwell Vallum Crossing Hedon-on-the-Wall Chollerford (beside Chesters Bridge) Sunday Corbridge Vindolanda Birdoswald Tullie House Museum (Carlisle) Crosscannonby Milefortlet I