G-Manicus

Ay caramba!

Mr. Gower cables you need cash. [stop] My office instructed to advance you up to twenty-five thousand dollars. [stop] Hee-haw and Merry Christmas. Sam Wainwright.

Monday 12/24/07 Naked Science National Geographic - 5:00 am Next showing: Roman Technology Roman-created technologies. Xena: Warrior Princess Oxygen - 7:00 am Next showing: The God You Know The Archangel Michael summons Xena to kill Roman Emperor Caligula, now immortal, who is murdering people, in a quest for absolute power. (I take it back ... THIS is the schlockiest listing I've ever posted!) Tuesday 12/25/07 Rome: Power & Glory Military Channel - 9:00 AM "The Rise" The founding of Rome; Etruscan culture; the establishment of the Republic. Rome: Power & Glory Military Channel - 10:00 AM "Legions of Conquest" An amateur army grows into a major force; Hannibal's elephants; Caesar's onslaught against Gaul; Persia defeats Valerian. Rome: Power & Glory Military Channel - 11:00 AM "Seduction of Power" Politics; Caesar rises from soldier to dictator; Augustus seizes the throne; dynastic problems leave the Empire reeling. Rome: Power & Glory Military Channel - 12:00 PM "The Grasp of the Empire" Roman colonization; slavery. Rome: Power & Glory Military Channel - 1:00 PM "The Cult of Order" The slow disintegration of Rome; the economy falters; citizens turn to religious cults; the Roman Empire becomes divided. Rome: Power & Glory Military Channel - 2:00 PM "The Fall" Invasions weaken Rome's grasp; Christianity draws strength; Constantine moves the empire's capital.

Save it for the appeal, son.

Thank you. I shall now retire to my chambers and upon my return I shall render my verdict on these charges against the accused ... :romansoldier: (from the back of the court room) "ALL RISE!"

So I'm clear on this then, Sulla was still considered afterwards to have been the legal Dictator of Rome? (no matter how repulsive his reign may have been)

Thanks, MPC. Following Sulla's resignation and/or death, was there ever any formal proceedings held to declare his Dictatorship "unconstitutional" or "null and void" or whatever the proper term would have been? Also, good point about the pre-Dictatorial proscriptions. THOSE could very well be the ones that were prosecuted as well I suppose. G

So, my wife and I have owned a Chevy Suburban for the last several years. With 3 kids and the need to make several trips from Cincinnati to the Northeast each year, we need a larger vehicle to cart all our gear, the dog, etc. Yeah, I know ... the fuel bill on that thing is a monster. Supposedly, they're very reliable vehicles however. Key word being "supposedly." Ours wasn't. It's caused us nothing but problems for the last several years and proved to be a money pit (aside from the gas issue) so we finally dumped it a week ago. We opted to go the minvan route instead of another SUV. Less expensive and suits our needs better. I did all the research on the different models and the various rebates and the like being offered and we ended up going with a Kia Sedona. It's fairly highly rated and as Kia (a Korean firm) is still trying to gain market penetration here in the States, their prices are substantially less than the competition. I drive a Kia Optima and have had nothing but great results with it. Plus, Kia was offering almost $3,000 in rebates on their 2007 Sedonas, so we figured we couldn't go wrong. ENNNNHHH!!!! With 400 miles on it, the thing died on Sunday while my wife and daughter were out shopping. In the rain. In the middle of the Giants game. Grrrr ... ! Turns out it was the computer. Also turns out that's not an item they readily keep in stock and have to have one shipped from the manufacturer. We're now on our 3rd day of being down to one vehicle and it's not fun. I had recently started taking the bus to work, and so you'd figure "Oh, okay ... that's not too inconvenient then only having the 1 vehicle." Except that my wife needs to get up in the morning to drive me to the bus stop at 6am. So, that's going over real well. Plus, my kids are involved in all sorts of extra-curricular activities/sports that frequently cause us to be in multiple places at once. So, long story short ... this has been "Hell Week" thus far. (As an aside, taking the bus totally rocks. Forget the $120 or so a month I save in gas, or the wear and tear on my vehicle, I get to READ for 60 minutes each day! I love to read, but just don't have the time for it. By the time I'm finally able to sit down at night after dealing with the kids, etc., the minute I crack open a book my eye lids immediately gain about 50 lbs. So it's kind of refreshing getting a little reading time.) In any event, I'm hoping to leverage this Kia fiasco into something tangible from these folks. Free oil changes for life or some other such consideration to make up for it would be nice. When we bought the thing, the sales person and the office manager both made a big deal of how we're going to be getting a customer satisfaction survey from Kia in a few weeks and that Kia considers anything below a "10" as a failure and that I was to call them first before sending anything back with a 9 or below on it. Well, from my vantage point they've got a lot of kissing to do to my backside between now and then if they want to see anything close to a "10". There. I'm done venting.

A reasonable interpretation is that we are NOT talking about Catiline or Ofella, else Plutarch, Suetonius, etal., would have mentioned them by name. No, it seems clear we're talking about any number of individuals forgotten to history who took advantage of Sulla's proscription law to (legally) fatten their wallet. Why would Sulla's Dictatorship be illegal though? The Senate ratified it, did they not?

MPC: Understood, and agreed. Anyone who was freelancing would obviously be subject to prosecution. The citations I raised though (particularly Suetonius) seem to make it clear these were men acting within the boundaries of Sulla's law. Or not ... ? What is your take on the Suetonius citation? I don't read it any other way than they were within their rights at the time.

While acknowledging that it's impossible to know for certain what exactly transpired at these various court proceedings (so-called), on it's face it would seem that a pretty decent case can be made that the State (in the form of Caesar, Cato, and other various and sundry elected/appointed officials) acted illegally in bringing charges against those who took part in Sulla's (legally sanctioned) proscriptions.

I'd certainly be interested in witnessing some of the famous battles ... Cannae, Arausio, Zama, Colline Gate, etc. From a military perspective though, what I most especially would like to see are some of their engineering accomplishments such as Caesar's double walled siege at Alesia and the bridge across the Rhine. I'd like to see how Augustus and Livia treated each other when alone. What was their relationship like? Was there love there? I always wondered why Livia never bore him any children. Was there a reason why? Was Livia different when Augustus wasn't around? How did she treat Julia and her family? I would like to go back and witness the events that prompted the animosity between Marius and Sulla, which ultimately hastened the fall of the Republic.

You don't find it "arguable"? I don't think your Trekkie analogy is appropriate. The immunity granted by Sulla was not made up out of whole cloth by Gene Roddenberry. It's real. It existed. You can't just ignore it. It's implied in the various quoted sources in this thread that these individuals were acting in accordance with Sulla's law. Now I can well imagine a scenario where a hearing is held to determine if these folks were acting with in the confines of the law as established by Sulla, and finding they were not, well, then all bets are off and they would be subject to prosecution. There is no indication that this was the case though. It seems that the potential (and seemingly probable) legal immunity of these individuals was simply ignored. And finally, I don't know what "per vim" means, but if I'm understanding your point in theory (even if not in practice! ) the acts of a Dictator are not prosecutable even after his term has passed.

MPC: Question ... Do you agree that it was arguably illegal to refuse to recognize any potential immunity?

Yeah, but he got a pass when his Mama went crying to the Don, so I don't know if we can count him. What about the children of the proscribed? I've read where they lost their Roman citizenship, is that true? If so, was that restored to them?

See my edit.

Thanks. That for the most part answers my original question. My readings of Plutarch and Suetonius' accounts seem to imply that the "proscribers" (for lack of a better term) were working within the law and that their subsequent post-Sullan prosecutions were simply vengeance. Do you know of any examples of those who were proscribed (but escaped murder) regaining their estates following Sulla's death?

Yeah, but then you did that whole back tracking thingy ... (edit - just having some fun with you is all, MPC)

More, from Suetonius: (I wonder what MPC's take would have been if I started off this one instead? )

I can certainly understand the desire to attack Sulla's supporters, particularly those who took part in the proscriptions. I'm just not clear on how it was able to be done on a legal basis. There actions were clearly immoral and unethical ... but were they illegal? Was "ex post facto" the norm during the Republic? Are there other examples of legal actions being declared illegal after the fact, so to speak? Because that in essence seems to be what has happened here.

Monday 12/17/07 What the Romans Did for Us History International - 9:30 am Next showing: Ahead of Their Time Forms of entertainment during the public holidays in Roman times. Tuesday 12/18//07 Smart Travels: Europe With Rudy Maxa HDNET - 7:00 am Next showing: Classical Europe: Ancient Greece and Rome Ancient Greece and Rome; Athens; Delphi; Syracuse; Pompeii. Saturday 12/22/07 Amazons and Gladiators (2001) The CW - 2:00 am During the time of the Roman Empire, a woman seeks revenge against the warrior who killed her loved ones and destroyed her village. (Perhaps the schlockiest listing I've ever posted)

But we're not talking about his acts being repealed. We're talking about agents of Sulla undertaking technically legal actions on his behalf. Perhaps at his very direction. I take it they didn't have the equivalent of Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution back in those days?

One of a kind. The offspring of Poseidon and Medusa.

From Plutarch:

Reading Plutarch's biography on Pompey and the following has me a little puzzled: What is that referring to? I gather he is saying that Clodius took advantage of Pompey's "celebrity" to further his own personal agenda, correct? If so, how/why did Pompey get to such a low state (where he appears to be the ancient equivalent of Dionne Warwick shilling for Psychic Friends Network)? And why would Pompey consent to this kind of relationship? The preceding language speaks of a political rivalry with Lucullus that lead to all this but it's a bit murky on details. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks.