cornelius_sulla

Woah. Some of you guys is professional. I'm a labourer in New Zealand. It's backbreaking hard work but it is rewarding (definitely not in a monetary sense, more in the knowing that you did the job in front of you, and you did it well) Most people I know feel embarassed for me when I proudly state what I do. I don't get that. Somebody has to do the spadework-might as well be me. The job's a no brainer, and you can leave work at work so that when you get home you can geek out on Roman history. I moonlight as a musician - I play guitar with my friends in a fun band (metal!), drums in a band that is a better earner, and fill in on bass at the local blues club here in Auckland. Y'know, when you write it all down, you aren't as boring as you thought you were!

There were a lot of Julian magistrates during the Republic with the cognomen of "Caesar," but there were other cognomina, too. I'm currently working on the Valerii, but I'll turn my attention to the Iulii soon. Thanks for your interest! -- Nephele No pressure, Lady Nephele. Lordy, woman, do you sleep?

Any chance of a similar list for the Julii? There must have been more cognomen for that gens than just 'Caesar'.

I am just very appreciative of Nephele's knowledge. I'm new to this, and she helped me out. And you have to admit, Ursus, the lady is a gem. With one email she's given me a massive shortcut to information on a topic that has been an annoyingly hard-to-pin-down obsession for years. For me it's like finding the source. Bigs ups to our Lady Nephele.

I am an interested amateur - many have cognominated me 'geek'. My last name in the real world is Julian; when I was eight years old my grandfather explained to me who Julius Caesar was, and bought me a copy of the Gallic commentaries. (I must state that I have no pretensions; I am not deluded enough to think that I am descended from one of the patrician Julii. It's just when your last name is Julian, and you know a bit about history, well, you can't help but be proud.) Since then I've had an all consuming interest in all things Roman, particularly the families and their famous scions. I've had a chance to read through all of the replies to your original topic, and I am awed by the breadth and depth of your knowledge, and also very happy for to have 'met' you. I feel like the proverbial kid in the candy shop.

And then I read the list! That isn't just comprehensive, it's exhaustive! For want of a better superlative, wicked!.

Thankyou Nephele and docoflove for your assistance. Nephele, I did mean individuals, not families, but the message didn't make it from brain to fingers when I was posting the topic. I am a relative neophyte to this whole deal so any help is appreciated. Cheers for all of the information.

I am compiling a list of Patrician familie names/cognomen from the time of the Kings to the end of the Republic. Any help on his topic would be appeciated. I know there were 100 families who originally advised one of the Kings, and that the Julii and the Fabii were some of the families represented.

I am neither "for" or "against" Sulla, but I admire him. He was a fiercely ambitious man who faced obstacle after obstacle (being penurious, starting his political career late, Gaius Marius, having his command against Mithridates taken off him, the list goes on) in his political career and became more and more ruthless with how he dealt with any impedence. Regardless of how he achieved it, he got to the top, stayed there to implement his will, and lived to retire to his estates to drink himself to death. The proscriptions were a blot on his record, but I think this is so only if you judge him with our 21st century morals. Rome was a nation that revelled in blood ( compassion was regarded as a weakness displayed by old women and frilly matrons ) - they're idea of a good time was watching men kill each other or get torn apart by animals. I doubt the proscriptions, with the forum drenched in blood and a rostra bristling with severed heads would have been considered an atrocity to 90 percent of Romans, especially as the proscriptions only really affected the rich Senators and Knights. I always imagine the poorer of Rome's citizens lining their pockets with the one talent fee for killing anyone on the lists rather than wringing their hands in despair for their political and fiscal overlords. Proscriptions of the upper classes was an expedient method of filling an empty treasury and getting rid of his political enemies, so Sulla did it. I don't think that he was trying to save the Republic per se. I think that he was trying to re establish the ascendancy of the Senate and patricians in particular. He took the veto of the tribunes! I reckon that after a life so full of contention, he probably gave up the Dictatorship because he'd had enough of public life. Lucius Cornelius Sulla - NO BETTER FRIEND, NO WORSE ENEMY.

Triumvirate - a commission of three men appointed or dedicated to the completion of a specific task. Singular - triumvir (Pompeius, Crassus and Caesar made up the First Triumvirate. Caesar, as one of the members, would have been a triumvir.) The first triumvirate was made up of Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey the Great), Marcus Licinius Crassus and Gaius Julius Caesar. Pompeius was the leading man in Rome at the time, Crassus the richest, and Caesar an up and comer who had winner written all over him, but was massively in debt. In 60 B.C these three Roman statesmen found they had a problem. They wanted stuff that their enemies in the senate were not inclined to give them for various reasons. Pompey wanted land for his veteran soldiers as reward for their services to him and Rome, and also wanted his proposed eastern colonies to be ratified. The colonies by their presence were to help 'romanize' Pontus and the territories of Mithridates, whom he had recently conquered. Crassus wanted compensation for businessmen (also known as 'the knights' or 'equestrians' or the 'ordo equester' or 'publicani' ) whose interests and businesses ( and more importantly, their profits ) had been damaged by the war in the east against Mithridates. Caesar wanted to be able to stand for consul without having to be in Rome in person ( 'in absentia' ) and he also wanted a Triumph for his various victories in Spain over the Spanish Lusitani and Calleici tribes in 61 BC. For the three men to succeed, they knew that they would have to have a consul in power in 59 B.C who would help them get what they wanted, and combat any opposition in the senate to them. This partnership of the three men would become known by modern historians as 'The First Triumvirate'. It was sealed by Pompey's marriage to Caesar's daughter in April '59. So, by wielding their massive combined influence to swing the voters, G. Julius Caesar was made consul for 59. B.C. Pompey and Crassus got their wishes. Caesar had laws passed granting Pompey's veterans their land, and eventually had Pompeys settlements in the East ratified. Crassus and the publicani got their wish in the form a massive bribe. The publicani, and therefore Crassus, stood to lose money in the east because they had overestimated the amount of taxes they could collect from Asia; so Caesar cut the contracts by a third therefore ensuring that there would still be a massive profit for Crassus and his clients. Caesar, although becoming consul, relinquished his right to triumph, because he knew that there would be bigger and better conquests to celebrate later in his career. It is common knowledge that Crassus and Pompey did not like each other, but had enough political nous to realise that they could not succeed on their own. Caesar acted as the go between. He knew that he would be a shoe in for consul and therefore be in an invaluable position to help the other two men achieve their ends, and have their their clout ( Pompey's soldiers and popularity ) and cash ( Crassus' billions ) to help him get what he wanted. Although they got what they wanted, the Triumvirs were now hated in Romans and Italians for their domination of politics, and their willingness to use force to see their measures passed. ( Pompey had bought soldiers into Rome to help see his legislation through, just in case Caesar's silver tongue was not enough ). At the end of 59 B.C, Caesar went to Gaul ( France ) where he would end up fighting for the next nine years, and also establish his reputation as the greatest Roman of them all. Without Caesar as a go between, relations between Pompey and Crassus became strained to the point where the Triumvirs had to have a sit down in Luca, in the year of 56 B.C, to try and bring the Triumvirate back to a single accord. To this end, it was decided that Pompey and Crassus would be consuls in 55 B.C, and thereafter receive commads in Syria ( Crassus ) and Spain ( Pompey ). Caesar would receive a five year extension to his command in Gaul. This was achieved and in 54 B.C Crassus left for Syria while Pompey stayed in Rome and governed Spain through his legates. During a riot in Rome, Pompey was standing near a man who was killed, and got drenched in his blood. He changed into a clean toga, and sent the bloody one home. His wife, Julia, ( Caesars daughter ) on seeing the bloody toga assumed that her husband had been killed. She fainted, suffered a miscarriage ( she was pregnant ) and died. Her death cut the familial bond between her father and Pompey. Then, in 53 B.C, Crassus was killed while on campaing in Parthia. This effectively ended the First Triumvirate. hope this helps, good luck with the project.

L.Quinctius Cincinnatus (his cognomen meant "curly", perhaps he had a perm) lost a minor battle to the Aequi in 458 B.C, which is the first mention of him that I can find. The consul Minucius, also on campaign against the Aequi, decided to keep his army inside his fortifications so as not to risk more losses. The Aequi took this as a sign of weakness and built barriers to trap Minucius in his fort. A handful of Romans escaped the blockade to inform the senate about the danger to the army. The senate decided to bypass the Minucius' fellow consul and elect a dictator. This is where Cincinnatus comes into his own. Messengers were sent to his small farm across the Tiber. They were greeted by L.Quinctius toiling on his farm, he returned their greeting, and was asked to put on his toga so he could hear the senates commands. Surprised, he asked "is everything alright?" and told his wife, Racilia, to bring him his toga from their cottage. He wiped the dirt and sweat of his toil from his person, donned his toga, and was greeted as Dictator by the messengers when he saw them again, presumably outside his cottage. He went to the city and was informed of the terror in the army. A state ship was ready for him. L.Quinctius orederd all men of military age to assemble before dawn in the Campus Martius. That day the army marched to Algidius where Minucius and his men were trapped. That night the Romans silently surrounded the enemie's camp; they won the battle that ensued, and L.Quinctius rescued Minucius and his army. Cincinnatus triumphed in Rome for his deed. After his triumph, L.Quinctius Cincinnatus retired from his post as Dictator, just 15 days after he had assumed it. He could have held onto it for 6 months, but instead returned to his tiller and plough. Cincinnatus was esteemed by Romans for his humble return to his farm and for not wanting any more reward than knowing that Rome was safe. He gave up unlimited power to return to his farm and penury. Hope this helps you dude, most of it is from what I have read of Livy.

Need further proof? Read Cicero himself. Contrast his private letters to his public speeches etc. Cicero was not only novus homo, but also one that for all his formidable talent as an advocate lacked and even avoided any activity that involved holding a sword and shield. It was pre requisite that he be adept at eloquent weaseling as the major weapon at his disposal was manipulation with tongue and pen. There is no doubt that Cicero was a patriot. But the way that he prates on indignantly after his consulship and Catiline etc about being the savior of his country points to some esteem issues. He'd been to the top and still was not taken seriously.

Even the proscriptions did not leave a power vacuum. Pompey hit the ground running as a force to be reckoned with, what with most of Picenum in his clientele and willing to form legions loyal to him ( and his father's memory ) before Rome. Sulla recognised his imprortance and gave him extraordinarily unconstitutional powers, often as far away from Rome as possible. Q. Metellus Pius, L. Licinius Lucullus, and Q. Sertorius were formidable generals. Q. Hortensius, Antonius Orator, Catulus held sway in the courts. Crassus was augmenting his fortune. Add to that list Vatia Isauricus, Mamercus, A. Claudius Pulcher... Rome after Sulla suffered no lack of leadership or personality.

Cato was cuckolded, I reckon. Probably by Caesar. This would explain not only his distaste for Caesar, but also why Cato turned to the bottle, a habit so out of step with his Stoic beliefs. Just an opinion.

Cato be duh bad guy. End of story.

I think that the death knell of the republic was signalled when the senate allowed Gaius Marius to enlist legionnaries from the ranks of the capite censi. Thereafter, the legions increasingly gave their first loyalty to their generals. Witness the Fimbriani, who even after fighting for Sulla and Lucullus, still referred to themselves as the men of Fimbria, their first general. No army of the early republic would have crossed the Rubicon with Caesar because they did not owe their generals that degree of loyalty. Gaius Julius Caesar's legions, however, relied on him for spoils, for land, for their share in the glory of Rome. Thus, Marius, Sulla, Pompey, Caesar etc could strong arm the senate with the threat of their armies marching on Rome. Sulla did it became Emperor in all but name. Caesar did it and became Dictator Perpetuus. On the other side of the coin, the Optimates, led by Cato, Bibulus, etc, adhered so doggedly to the mos maiorum that they were willing to cut off the nose of the Republic to spite it's face. They abhorred change, even change for the better, and refused to give an inch to Caesar, who after all, only wanted his due. Finally, the systems of the Republic itself were woefully inadequate for governing the extensive conquests of Rome. The Senate and the People were no longer in charge of a city state, but practically the European World. Caesar and Augustus after him saw that power needed to be centralised. Kia Ora!