ASCLEPIADES

Salve, Lady N Xenophon was certainly no Roman and you probably have read this one before, but as one can never be sure and it may be useful, here comes Cinegetica, (Κυνηγετικός / On Hunting), cp. 7, sec. 5: "Give the hounds short names, so as to be able to call to them easily. The following are the right sort: Psyche, Thymus, Porpax, Styrax, Lonch

Salve, Amici The (pseudo?)aristotelian treatise De Mundo (Περί κόσμου, cp. II pg 602) informs us that Mars was also called Hercules or Pyrosis. In the Latin translation/adaptation of that treatise by the same name (De Mundo), the (pseudo?) Lucius Apuleius compares Greek and Latin denominations for the planets (cap II, l 710): "Hic Phaenonis globus, quem appellamus Saturnum; post quem Phaethontis secundus est, quem Iovem dicimus: et loco tertio Pyrois, quam multi Herculis, plures Martis stellam vocant. Stilbon, cui quidam Apollinis, ceteri Mercuri nomen dederunt. Quintus Phosphorus, Iunonia, immo Veneris stella censetur." (Latin names in italics, Greek names bold. The Inferior planets Mercury and Venus had double Greek denomination, for their morning and evening versions respectively) And here comes Caius Plinius Secundus Maior, Naturalis Historia, Liber II, cp VI: Saturni autem sidus gelidae ac rigentis esse naturae, multumque ex eo inferiorem Iovis circulum et ideo motu celeriore duodenis circumagi annis. tertium Martis, quod quidam Herculis vocant, igne ardens solis vicinitate, binis fere annis converti, ideoque huius ardore nimio et rigore Saturni, interiectum ambobus, ex utroque temperari Iovem salutaremque fieri. "Saturn is a star of a cold and rigid nature, while the orbit of Jupiter is much lower, and is carried round in twelve years. The next star, Mars, which some persons call Hercules, is of a fiery and burning nature, and from its nearness to the sun is carried round in little less than two years. In consequence of the excessive heat of this star and the rigidity of Saturn, Jupiter, which is interposed between the two, is tempered by both of them, and is thus rendered salutary." and ibid. cp. XIII: igitur a terrae centro apsides altissimae sunt Saturno in scorpione, Iovi in virgine, Marti in leone, soli in geminis, Veneri in sagittario, Mercurio in capricorno, lunae in tauro, mediis omnium partibus, et e contrario ad terrae centrum humillimae atque proximae "The apsides which are the highest from the centre of the earth are, for Saturn, when he is in Scorpio, for Jupiter in Virgo, for Mars in Leo, for the Sun in Gemini, for Venus in Sagittarius, and for Mercury in Capricorn, each of them in the middle of these signs; while in the opposite signs, they are the lowest and nearest to the centre of the earth." (ie, Zodiac constellation for "Herculis" was Leo, named after the Nemean lion) and ibid, cp XVI: suus quidem cuique color est: Saturno candidus, Iovi clarus, Marti igneus, Lucifero candens, Vesperi refulgens, Mercurio radians, lunae blandus, soli, cum oritur, ardens, postea radians, his causis conexo visu et earum quae caelo continentur. "Each of the planets has its peculiar colour; Saturn is white, Jupiter brilliant, Mars fiery, Lucifer is glowing, Vesper refulgent, Mercury sparkling, the Moon mild; the Sun, when he rises, is blazing, afterwards he becomes radiating." BTW, the characteristic redness of the planet Hercules/ Mars/ Pyro(s)is (= Greek for fire) is caused by the abundance of hematite ("blood rock", an iron oxide).

Salve, Amici Here goes to an extensive and sometimes heated discussion on New Testament historicity that we almost accidentally began after Fergus Millar's analysis on Imperial law in Iudea. I think much of that argumentation might be pertinent and interesting for the present one. Of course, we have to differentiate historical from theological plausibility; and that applies not only to theist positions, but to agnostic and atheist too. Understandably, any of us may tend to consider any quotation more or less likely depending on the degree of adherence to our own religious (or non-religious) convictions. Anyhow, the potential value of any document as an historical source is clearly aside from its purported (or not) sacred status.

Heh, that was my quote I'd found from Pliny, that G-Man was re-quoting. However, I did caution in a later posting that perhaps we can't always rely on Pliny, as Pliny did also write about a particularly ferocious breed of dog from the near East that was supposedly cross-bred with tigers. Which, of course, we know isn't possible. Maty above seems to have covered the question, though. -- Nephele Salve, Amici Sorry, Lady N; erratum meus, hic mihi ignosces. Anyway, your point is mine too. For I think Caius Plinius S Maior was quite exhaustive, even if sometimes kind of gullible. He was also: 1) eager to show Romans were the best ones on virtually everything (over all Naturalis Historia in general) and 2) quite fond on canines (specifically on Liber VIII cp. LXI). So I find quite unlikely Plinius wouldn't have recorded any related previous roman story on this issue, no matter how fantastic it may have sounded. Actually, the Garamantes story seems pretty unreliable to me (ibid): Garamantum regem canes CC ab exilio reduxere proeliati contra resistentes "A king of the Garamantes also was brought back from exile by two hundred dogs, which maintained the combat against all his opponents" The remote Garamantes were almost semi-legendary, after all; but Castabala and specially Colophon were wholely another story. They were both well known cities, the latter even with a long military history; that's why the silence of other sources on the cohortes caninas is so problematic to me. BTW, Forster's quotation on Herodotus is indeed about Xerxes using dogs, but not actually as weapons (Polimnia, cp 187) : "That is the number of Xerxes' whole force. No one, however, can say what the exact number of cooking women, and concubines, and eunuchs was, nor can one determine the number of the beasts of draught and burden, and the Indian dogs (κυνω̂ν ̓Ινδικω̂ν*) which accompanied the host; so many of them were there." I don't think concubines or cooking women counted as weapons either.

Salve, Amici Regarding the original question of this thread, I think the quotation from Gmanicus on Post#3 has considerable negative signifance, given the exhaustive Plinian review methodology; ie, if Caius Plinius Secundus Maior didn't say so, it's probably because it didn't happen. Capitis LXI Liber VIII of Naturalis Historia (circa DCCCXXX AUC / AD 77) specifically refered the bellic use of canines by other nations (Garamantes in Lybia, Colophon in Ionia and Castabala in Cilicia) clearly as extraordinary facts; and then he refered other extraordinary (but non-bellic) achievements by Roman canines. BTW, I havent't been able so far to find any independent confirmation on those notorious Colophonii itemque Castabalenses cohortes canum.

Salve, Amici Here comes Herodotus (Ἡρόδοτος), Book I "Clio" (Κλειώ), cp. 42, lines 2-3: [2] διαφέρουσι δέ σφι ἐπὶ ἴσης τὸν πόλεμον τῳ̂ ἕκτῳ ἔτεϊ συμβολη̂ς γενομένης συνήνεικε ὥστε τη̂ς μάχης συνεστεώσης τὴν ἡμέρην ἐξαπίνης νύκτα γενέσθαι. τὴν δὲ μεταλλαγὴν ταύτην τῃ̂ ἡμέρης Θαλη̂ς ὁ Μιλήσιος τοι̂σι ̓́Ιωσι προηγόρευσε ἔσεσθαι, οὐ̂ρον προθέμενος ἐνιαυτὸν του̂τον ἐν τῳ̂ δὴ καὶ ἐγένετο ἡ μεταβολή. [3] οἱ δὲ Λυδοί τε καὶ οἱ Μη̂δοι ἐπείτε εἰ̂δον νύκτα ἀντὶ ἡμέρης γενομένην, τη̂ς μάχης τε ἐπαύσαντο καὶ μα̂λλόν τι ἔσπευσαν καὶ ἀμφότεροι εἰρήνην ἑωυτοι̂σι γενέσθαι. [2] diapherousi de sphi epi is

Salve, Valerius Primus Pilus is responsible for this wonderful Legal Chronology. The entries of 133 BC (Lex Sempronia Agraria) and 123 BC (Leges Semproniae) should be particularly useful for you. Just check out their primary sources.

Salve, C. As far as I know, only North American breeds like the Canadian Eskimo and the Native American Indian Dogs were suitable for drafting purposes. Mesoamerican and South American breeds were mostly on the other side of the size scale, like the Xoloitzcuintli, the Al'co Calato or the Techichi (Chihuahua's ancestor).

Salve, Amici Ironically, it's well known the comparison of Jesus with Caesar (not Caius Julius of course, but Tiberius) appeared even before the Crucifixion; actually, it was the main juridical rationale for it. Not surprisingly, the 4 Gospels (and Acts, Luke's resumption) are quite unanimous on the refusal of this thesis. The famous quotation of Matthew 22:15-22 is presumably the most explicit: " Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied. Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." " (New International Version)

Salve, Amici Welcome to UNRV, LJV I have not read this book, so I can only judge it from LJV's link. From where I am, I think we are giving it much more credit than it deserves. Certainly, the potential relationship between the Julian (and Imperial) cult with early christianity merits a careful research; research that was clearly not done here. What we have here is just a provocative title and the search of purported similarities with an almost complete lack of methodology. In fact, it's a good example of how easy you could "find" similarities between the most unrelated issues, linguistic or otherwise. I mean : Pompey > John (the Baptist)? Antonius > Simon?? Lepidus > Peter?? Cleopatra > (Mary) Magdalene??? The Senate > The Sanhedrin > Satan???? Come on! (BTW, even Dante found an analogy between Judas and Brutus; but it was Marcus, not Decimus). This stuff seems analogous to the 9/11 numerical coincidence conspiracy "theories". At electoral times, the "Obama-Osama" confusion comes to mind too.

Salce, C. Religious paraphernalia is subject to theological, not scientific analysis. Any group can include or exclude whichever text (or divine consult) they like in their respective canon. Just check on the Book of Mormon, for example.

Salve, MPC Sullan proscription went on many months under this Lex Cornelia Proscriptione et Proscriptis until it ended at Kalendas Iunias, DCLXXIII AUC. There has been no proscription for months at the time of S Roscius Maior's death. That was one of the pivotal ideas behind Cicero's defense. That is also, BTW, the interpretation given by William Smith in his article on Roscius of Ameria at his Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology : "and the name of Sextus was placed on the proscription list, notwithstanding an edict of Sulla, that none of the proscribed should be pur

Salve, Amici El felicissimus memorialis dies! "Romanus sum" inquit, "ciuis; C. Mucium uocant. Hostis hostem occidere uolui, nec ad mortem minus animi est, quam fuit ad caedem; "I am a citizen of Rome," he said, "men call me C. Mucius. As an enemy I wished to kill an enemy, and I have as much courage to meet death as I had to inflict it. T. Livius, AB URBE CONDITA Liber II, cp. XII.

Salve, K Obvious problem would have been that "spanish" conqueror's armies tended to have an overwhelming majority of indian allies.

Here comes a link to the same note on Times online So Mr Harwass is in the news again...

Salve, MPC Again, Sextus Roscius Maior was slained many months after the prescription of the Lex Cornelia de Proscriptione et Proscriptis at Kalendas Iunias (June 1), DCLXXIII AUC / 81 BC (see cp. XLIV), so his murder couldn't be justified in that way: "Opinor enim esse in lege quam ad diem proscriptiones venditionesque fiant, nimirum Kalendas Iunias. Aliquot post mensis et homo occisus est ..." "For I think it is set down in the law on what day these proscriptions and sales shall take place, forsooth on the first of June. Some months afterwards the man was slain..."

What an interesting point! A very interesting point indeed... I just can't believe that Cicero wouldn't have addressed this issue if it had been relevant to the case. Salve, Amici Cicero addressed heavily on this issue; it was a critical part of his defense, as he showed how the purported proscription was a crude hoax from Chrysogonus and company. Actually, Sextus Roscius Sr. was a sullan. For example, let see chapter XLV: "primum qua re civis optimi bona venierint, deinde qua re hominis eius qui neque proscriptus neque apud adversarios occisus est bona venierint, cum in eos solos lex scripta sit, deinde qua re aliquanto post eam diem venierint quae dies in lege praefinita est, " "First of all, why the property of a virtuous citizen was sold? Next, why the property of a man who was neither proscribed, nor slain in the garrisons of the opposite party, were sold; when the law was made against them alone? Next, why were they sold long after the day which is appointed by the law?" Sextus Roscius Sr. was slained many months after the prescription of the Lex Cornelia de Proscriptione et Proscriptis at Kalendas Iunias (June 1), DCLXXIII AUC / 81 BC (see cp. XLIV). BTW, this extracts also shows again how Sullan proscription was not limited by Sacramentum.

Salve, Amici Here is a breif review on the use of mastiffs and lebrels by Spanish conquerors against amerindians over the XV and XVI centuries. Of course, amerindians were almost naked and used neolithic weapons, little more than sticks and stones; even so, it's clear spanish dogs were no substitute for european and allied soldiers, but mostly complementary to them for what we may call anti-guerrilla warfare.

As in so many other ares, Genetics have became the Gold standard for demographics too. Commonly, the presence of the same biomarkers in geographically distant and apparently unrelated highly isolated populations sugests that they all came from a quite ancient and widely distributed ancestor group that was eventually displaced from better suited-for-living areas by more successful competitors .

Salve, Amici QUOTE: "Even if you aren't into the religious aspect of this story, it should be a fascinating look in the archaeology and preservation of ancient texts." I completely agree with PP. From what have been posted on this thread, I think no one is actually disputing these papyri are an autheticated document from the III or IV century AD, an amazing fact by itself. I also think most of the publicity (and money) involved in this case comes not from the archeological but from the potential religious aspect of this document (ie, the "good Judas" alternative). Religious stuff is a matter of faith, not science; period.

Here in the States, as well as in the U.K. (as you mentioned), the Rottweiler occasionally receives bad press for being a "dangerous" dog. But, actually, it's people who are dangerous when they deliberately breed and train dogs to be aggressive. The problem with the more intimidating breeds is that they do possess the jaw strength to do some real damage if they're trained to do so, or otherwise abused. But I've personally known pit bulls and Rottweilers who are soft as grease and wonderful family dogs. -- Nephele hmmm... okay. well,rotweilers are by nature on of the most aggresive breeds of dogs, and training by humans has very little to do with how aggressive it it. its all in the breeding that has gone on for milennia. theyve taken hte most vicious and brutal dogs and bred them forming a subspecies of crazy attack dogs. therefore, they instinctively are crazy attack fiends hellbent on massacring the entire human race. Antiochus III Salve, Amici I have to agree with lady N on this one; I have met some gentle Rottweilers (and Akitas, Dobermans, Alsacians and from any other of the so-called working breeds). BTW, you can train a terrier or a pekinese to become all the agressive you want them to be. Among healthy dogs, agressiveness is mainly in the training. Obviously, for defense training you would prefer a big, strong and intelligent specimen from a working breed, not a Chihuahua or a Poodle. That's what make those dogs so dangerous.

Salve, Amici Gratiam habeo for your last posts, Doctum; they have been quite informative and clarifying. I will eventually bother you with some additional questions on the same (or related) topics, but I think they will deserve their own thread.

Salve, Amici. "Quorum id perfidia et periurio fiat, deos nunc testes esse, mox fore ultores." "The gods were now the witnesses and would soon be the avengers of those through whose perfidy and perjury this had come about." Titus Livius, AB URBE CONDITA, Liber III, cp. II, s. IV

47!!?? That's quite a number! Salve, Doc That figure is currently quoted both by ethnologue (check their list) and SIL (Summer Institute of Linhuistics at US). This estimation is inherently controversial, mainly due to their dialect continuum ( ie, calling the Mirandese a Portuguese dialect or a language by itself is to a great extent in the eye of the beholder).

Salve, Amici. The most obvious and not so subliminal answer would be at most words in any of the 47 or so contemporary romance languages.