ASCLEPIADES

Here come James Otis Jr comments on Polybius at The Rights of the British Colonies Asserted and Proved (Boston: 1764), pg. 14; "The very few colonists who knew him found his history more useful for illustrative than for philosophic materials. In this respect, however, his description of the Roman constitution at the time of the battle of Cannae aroused some homage and in all likelihood contributed to the high value placed on separation of powers as a basis of stable government".

As far as I know, "silla" is no Latin word.

Salve, M That description may certainly fit my case. I can't speak for you.

I made no reference to septentrional nor as far as I can see is there any reference to this term (rarely used in English) in the article. Melvadius I didn't explain myself rightly. I don't contend any of Dr. Hunter's (or this article's) points or conclusions. I just posted what I considered was a related thread, just like this one. A poor choice of terms, indeed. My bad.

Glad you like it, K

One has to be fair and mention that the rabbinic literature also portray the zealots in a negative way. That is hardly surprising. Rabbinical Judaic literature survived, and could only survive in a milieu that was violently anti-Jewish, primarily because of its dissociation with the Messianic, Apocalyptic Judaism that had brought catastrophe to the Holy Land twice in a century. That is precisely the reason why Pauline Christianity also survived. It would have been unwise of the later sages and Rabbis to glorify the Zealots in a post-Hadrian era. So I think the Rabbinic literature you're talking about also needs to be ingested with a grain of salt. Salve, Amici. Hmmm... maybe we should open an additional thread on the zealotry and related issues.

It isn't so much the senate were weak, it had more to do with the rise of legionary commanders with political aspirations as influential men in their own right, with personal loyalty from their troops rather than to Rome, but also because the senate were more cocerned with their own privilege than serving public duty, thus had effectively lost the support of common people by that stage. . Therefore, while leaving room for the part played by the Roman citizens in letting the Republic fall we can still conclude that the senate was weaker than "those who had political power and those who aspired for it." and that it too was responsible for the Republic's downfall. After all Sulla did fortify the senate's position and yet it couldn't even hold on to that 2nd chance. Or better still blame it on the senate's moral weakness. Salve, Amici. Interesting points, as "those who had political power and those who aspired for it" were basically proud Senators. Personally, I consider "moral weakness" to be one of those comfortable terms that can mean whatever you want, from everything to nothing, both in classical and present times.

My inferences are 1) This was a society where sexual deviations and misconduct was rampant. 2) This was a society seriously incapable of logical thought. Salve, M. Regarding #1, sexuality has been always been a complex cultural issue. It wouldn't be the first time that unexplained conducts from people so alien to us are considered just mental pathology. Just remember their Babylonian neighbours. BTW Mental pathology is currently considered by psychologists to be the dysfunctional conduct for you social context. Regarding #2, I personally find quite hard to support such conclusion on a culture so successful in so many aspects for so long time. Or, we may have a serious translation problem, who knows. Sometimes translation is more than just selecting the right word.

Salve, M From a previous thread, the most septentrional confirmed Roman construction.

Indeed. For example, here comes the Talmud, Gittin 56a-b: "The biryonim (revolutionaries, zealots) were then in the city. The rabbis said to them, 'Let us make peace with [the Romans]. They would not let them. They said, 'Let us fight them. The rabbis said: That will do nothing. [The biryonim] went and burned the stores of wheat and barley creating famine

Salve, I. Ha'aretz is trying to get more fun for the same money. Prof. Knohl has been defending this hypothesis for some time: "The first mention of the "slain Messiah" called Mashiah ben Yosef (Messiah Son of Joseph) is in the Talmud (Sukkah 52a). In my book "The Messiah Before Jesus" (University of California Press, 2000), I argue that the story of this slain messiah is based on historical fact. I believe it is connected to the Jewish revolt in the Land of Israel following the death of King Herod in 4 B.C.E. This Jewish insurrection was brutally suppressed by the armies of Herod and the Roman emperor Augustus, and the messianic leaders of the revolt were killed. These events set the slain Messiah Son of Joseph tradition into motion and paved the way for the emergence of the concept of "catastrophic messianism." Interpretations of biblical text helped to shape the belief that the death of the messiah was a necessary and indivisible component of salvation. My conclusion, based on apocalyptic writings dating to this period, was that certain groups believed the messiah would die, be resurrected in three days, and ascend to heaven (see "The Messiah Before Jesus," 27-42)". MORE by I. Knohl in Ha'aretz (April 2007)

Salve C. Actually, the oldest mention of cohors that I was able to find was in the battle of Ilipa (Hispania, DXLVIII AUC / 206 BC), presumably the most brilliant victory of Publius Cornelius Scipio (future Africanus Maior) against Hasdrubal and Masinissa during II Punic War. Here comes Polybius, Historiae, Liber XI, cp. XXII-XXIII: "... Scipio receiving the skirmishers through the intervals between his cohorts distributed them on his wings behind his infantry, placing the velites in front with the horse behind them. At first he made a direct frontal advance, but when at a distance of four stades from the enemy he ordered the Spaniards to continue advancing in the same order but the infantry and cavalry on the right wing to wheel to the right and those of the left wing to wheel to the left. Then taking, himself from the right wing and Lucius Marcius and Marcus Junius from the left, the leading three troops of horse and placing in front of them the usual number of velites and three maniples (this body of infantry the Romans call a cohort), he advanced straight on the enemy at a rapid pace, wheeling in the one case to the left and in the other to the right, the rear ranks always following the direction of the front ones". Polybius wrote this some time after the end of III Punic War (DCVIII AUC / 146 BC). I think there might have been a significant period (decades?) for the transition from the maniples to the cohors. Some components of the so-called "Marian" Reforms may have been not so Marian after all.

Salve, GD Indeed. Both "Titus Flavius" Josephus and Vidkun Quisling were selective collaborationists. For example, Quisling was no friend of Norway's Reichskommissar Josef Heinrich Terboven. That didn't prevent them from working together in the massive deportation of Jews and Norwegian patriots to the Reich. Even if TF Josephus was mistrusted by many Roman officials, who attributed every reverse on the Judean War to some treachery on his part, he was perfectly able to actively help Titus in Jerusalem's siege and genocide.

Salve, C. Right indeed. Here comes Caius Suetonius T., De vita caesarum, Divus Julius, cp. XX, sec II: Like a hundred years after Suetonius, Lucius Claudius Cassius Dio gave us a little variant of the same story. Here comes Historia Romana, Liber XXXVIII, cp. VIII, sec II: "In most matters Caesar himself proposed, advised, and arranged everything in the city once for all as if he were its sole ruler; hence some facetious persons totally suppressed the name of Bibulus, and in speaking or writing would name Caesar twice, stating that the consuls were Gaius Caesar and Julius Caesar".

Salve Amici. A little variant from the original thread. Any ideas?

Salve U. Strictly speaking, the Bacchanalia were completely forbidden, at least in Italy (the legal prevision for a "Senate's approval" was mostly hypothetical).

Salve Amici. About Suetonius on Isis in a related thread.

Salve Jasmina. Even if didn't find Caius Suetonius Tranquillus within your bibliography, it's clear to me you rely on him (at least indirectly) when you wrote on Tiberius and specially Augustus. I found two additional quotations on Isis in De Vitae Caesarum: Here comes Vita Othonis, cp. XII, sec. I: ... sacra etiam Isidis saepe in lintea religiosaque veste propalam celebrasse. "... also that he used to celebrate the rites of Isis publicly in the linen garment prescribed by the cult". And here comes Vita Domitiani, cp. I, sec. II: ... sed irrumpentibus adversariis et ardente templo apud aedituum clam pernoctavit, ac mane Isiaci celatus habitu interque sacrificulos variae1 superstitionis cum se trans Tiberim ad condiscipuli sui matrem comite uno contulisset, ita latuit, ut scrutantibus qui vestigia subsecuti erant, deprehendi non potuerit "...when the enemy forced an entrance and the temple was fired, he hid during the night with the guardian of the shrine, and in the morning, disguised in the garb of a follower of Isis and mingling with the priests of that fickle superstition, he went across the Tiber with a single companion to the mother of one of his school-fellows". It seems Suetonius was no fan of Isis.

...And indirect information on Nesilim's sexual life too: 187. If a man have intercourse with a cow, it is a capital crime, he shall die. They shall lead him to the king's hall. But the king may kill him, the king may grant him his life. But he shall not approach the king. 188. If a man have intercourse with his own mother, it is a capital crime, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a daughter, it is a capital crime, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a son, it is a capital crime, he shall die. 190. If a man and a woman come willingly, as men and women, and have intercourse, there shall be no punishment. And if a man have intercourse with his stepmother, there shall be no punishment; except if his father is living, it is a capital crime, the son shall die. 191. If a free man picks up now this woman, now that one, now in this country, then in that country, there shall be no punishment if they came together sexually willingly. 194. If a free man pick up female slaves, now one, now another, there is no punishment for intercourse. If brothers sleep with a free woman, together, or one after the other, there is no punishment. If father and son sleep with a female slave or harlot, together, or one after the other, there is no punishment. 195. If a man sleep with the wife of his brother, while his brother is living, it is a capital crime, he shall die. If a man have taken a free woman, then have intercourse also with her daughter, it is a capital crime, he shall die. If he have taken her daughter, then have intercourse with her mother or her sister, it is a capital crime, he shall die. 197. If a man rape a woman in the mountain, it is the man's wrong, he shall die. But if he rape her in the house, it is the woman's fault, the woman shall die. If the husband find them and then kill them, there is no punishing the husband. 199. If anyone have intercourse with a pig or a dog, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a horse or a mule, there is no punishment. But he shall not approach the king, and shall not become a priest. If an ox spring upon a man for intercourse, the ox shall die but the man shall not die. One sheep shall be fetched as a substitute for the man, and they shall kill it. If a pig spring upon a man for intercourse, there is no punishment. If any man have intercourse with a foreign woman and pick up this one, now that one, there is no punishment.

Salve Amici. The Hittites' name for themselves (endonym) was Nesilim. Their main legal text (circa 1650 BC) is known as The Code of the Nesilim, I found interesting some implicit information on their slaves' status: 1. If anyone slay a man or woman in a quarrel, he shall bring this one. He shall also give four persons, either men or women, he shall let them go to his home. 2. If anyone slay a male or female slave in a quarrel, he shall bring this one and give two persons, either men or women, he shall let them go to his home. 3. If anyone smite a free man or woman and this one die, he shall bring this one and give two persons, he shall let them go to his home. 4. If anyone smite a male or female slave, he shall bring this one also and give one person, he shall let him or her go to his home. 6. If anyone blind a free man or knock out his teeth, formerly they would give one pound of silver, now he shall give twenty half-shekels of silver. 8. If anyone blind a male or female slave or knock out their teeth, he shall give ten half-shekels of silver, he shall let it go to his home. 17. If anyone cause a free woman to miscarry, if it be the tenth month (?), he shall give ten half-shekels of silver, if it be the fifth month, he shall give five half-shekels of silver. 18. If anyone cause a female slave to miscarry, if it be the tenth month (?), he shall give five half-shekels of silver. 20. If any man of Hatti steal a Nesian slave and lead him here to the land of Hatti, and his master discover him, he shall give him twelve half-shekels of silver, he shall let it go to his home. 21. If anyone steal a slave of a Luwian from the land of Luwia, and lead him here to the land of Hatti, and his master discover him, he shall take his slave only. 24. If a male or female slave run away, he at whose hearth his master finds him or her, shall give fifty half-shekels of silver a year. 31. If a free man and a female slave be fond of each other and come together and he take her for his wife and they set up house and get children, and afterward they either become hostile or come to close quarters, and they divide the house between them, the man shall take the children, only one child shall the woman take. 32. If a slave take a woman as his wife, their case is the same. The majority of the children to the wife and one child to the slave. 36. If a slave convey the bride price to a free son and take him as husband for his daughter, nobody dare surrender him to slavery. 98. If a free man set a house ablaze, he shall build the house, again. And whatever is inside the house, be it a man, an ox, or a sheep that perishes, nothing of these he need compensate. 99. If a slave set a house ablaze, his master shall compensate for him. The nose of the slave and his ears they shall cut off, and give him back to his master. But if he do not compensate, then he shall give up this one. 170. If a free man kill a serpent and speak the name of another, he shall give one pound of silver; if a slave, this one shall die.

Silla means "chair" in Spanish, from latin sella, ae. And as "e" in some cases was pronounced like "i", your Silla (Sulla) would be confused for Silla (Sella), which for the analphabet plebe (and others) should be, at least, hilarious. Salve, T. We agree. Anyhow, we're not talking about Spanish here, but Italian. Here comes it.Wikipedia's Lucio Cornelio Silla.

Salve Amici Here comes Titus Livius Patavinus, Ab Urbe Condita, Liber XXVI cp. XXIII: ludi Apollinares et priore anno fuerant et eo anno ut fierent referente Calpurnio praetore senatus decreuit ut in perpetuum uouerentur. eodem anno prodigia aliquot uisa nuntiataque sunt. in aede Concordiae Uictoria quae in culmine erat fulmine icta decussaque ad Uictorias quae in antefixis erant haesit neque inde procidit; et Anagniae et Fregellis nuntiatum est murum portasque de caelo tacta, et in foro Subertano sanguinis riuos per diem totum fluxisse, et Ereti lapidibus pluuisse, et Reate mulam peperisse. ea prodigia hostiis maioribus sunt procurata et obsecratio in unum diem populo indicta et nouendiale sacrum. "The Games of Apollo had been exhibited the previous year, and when the question of their repetition the next year was moved by the praetor Calpurnius, the senate passed a decree that they should be observed for all time. Some portents were observed this year and duly reported. The statue of victory which stood on the roof of the temple of Concord was struck by lightning and thrown down on to the statues of Victory which stood above the facade in front of the pediment, and here it was caught and prevented from falling lower. At Anagnia and Fregellae the walls and gates were reported to have been struck. In the forum of Subertum streams of blood had flowed for a whole day. At Eretium there was a shower of stones and at Reate a mule had produced offspring. These portents were expiated by sacrifices of full-grown victims; a day was appointed for special intercessions and the people were ordered to join in solemn rites for nine days". L. Calpurnius Piso Frugi. 90 BC. AR Denarius (3.64 g) Obv: Laureate head of Apollo right; trophy cup before. Rev: Horseman galloping right, carrying palm. The image of the horseman refers to the Ludi Apollinares, established in 212 BC. The annual celebration of these games was originally proposed by the praetor L.Calpurnius Piso, an ancestor of the moneyer. Acording to Richard Schaefer, this is a rare variant with possibly only two other known examples. SOURCE: http ://tjbuggey.ancients.info And ibid Periochae Liber XXV, sec III: Ludi Apollinares ex Marci carminibus, quibus Cannensis clades praedicta fuerat, instituti sunt. "The Games of Apollo were organized in accordance with the Oracles of Marcius, which had predicted the disaster at Cannae".

Thanks! should be able to do something with this one Salve, M. Glad you find it useful. Keep searching the sources, and please inform us on your conclusions.

I greatly enjoyed the thesis, Jasminia. Congratulations. Salve Jasmina et congratulatus sum. Of course I totally agree with Ursus on both counts. Gratiam habeo for linking us to such nice tertiary source; an essential addition to our Favorites.