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Everything posted by Ingsoc
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Natural causes, Livia wasn't actually the wicked witch that is often shown in modern works about Augustus reign.
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According to Cassius Dio Drusus the younger was "so prone to anger that he even inflicted blows upon a distinguished knight and received on this account the nickname castor. This statetment was supposed to be taken as ironic as Castor was the patron god of the Roman ordo equester.
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Search at JSTOR, it's has some translations.
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It's seem that after the civil war the army discipline decline and Augustus had to harden it again. He made many changes and innovations in the army, besides reviving some usages of former times. He exacted the strictest discipline. It was with great reluctance that he allowed even his generals to visit their wives, and then only in the winter season. He sold a Roman knight and his property at public auction, because he had cut off the thumbs of two young sons, to make them unfit for military service; but when he saw that some tax-gatherers were intent upon buying him, he knocked him down to a freedmanÂș of his own, with the understanding that he should be banished to the country districts, but allowed to live in freedom. He dismissed the entire tenth legion in disgrace, because they were insubordinate, and others, too, that demanded their discharge in an insolent fashion, he disbanded without the rewards which would have been due for faithful service. If any cohorts gave way in battle, he decimated them, and fed the rest on barley. When centurions left their posts, he punished them with death, just as he did the rank and file; for faults of other kinds he imposed various ignominious penalties, such as ordering to stand all day long before the general's tent, sometimes in their tunics without their sword-belts, or again holding ten-foot poles or even a clod of earth. After the civil wars he never called any of the troops "comrades," either in the assembly or in an edict, but always "soldiers";24 and he would not allow them to be addressed otherwise, even by those of his sons or stepsons who held military commands, thinking the former term too flattering for the requirements of discipline, the peaceful state of the times, and his own dignity and that of his household. (Suetonius, The Life of Augustus, 24-25)
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The fragment is lomger than just themention of Varus, it's about ten lines and mostly mention Agrippa powers, an English translation can be found at Robert K. Sherk, The Roman Empire: Augustus to Hadrian, pp. 24-25 (PM me if you having trouble finding the book).
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It's should be noted that Paterculus was the close friend of Tiberius and hence he put an highly favourable portray of his friend, you could see that some parts ("who had but a short time before threatened Italy with slavery") was an obivious propoganda. However I do agree that Tiberius was a good general but cautious one who rather use diplomacy rather than charge straight against his enemy thought he got the job done. It also should be noted that when be became an emperor he try to improve the administration in the provinces in orfer to prevent further revolts.
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It's seem that Reinhold think that she could also be the daughter of Attica Marcus Agrippa's Son-in-Law P. Quinctilius Varus
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It's seem that his death was welcomed by the upper class while his supporters lay in the lower classes of society "The Senators enjoyed the first exercise of freedom with the less restraint, because the Emperor was new to power, and absent from the capital. The leading men of the Equestrian order sympathised most closely with the joy of the Senators. The respectable portion of the people, which was connected with the great families, as well as the dependants and freedmen of condemned and banished persons, were high in hope. The degraded populace, frequenters of the arena and the theatre, the most worthless of the slaves, and those who having wasted their property were supported by the infamous excesses of Nero, caught eagerly in their dejection at every rumour." (Tacitus, Histories I.4) It's also seem he was especially popular in the east. "The fact is, Nero restored the liberties of Hellas with a wisdom and moderation quite alien to his character; and the cities regained their Doric and Attic characteristics, and a general rejuvenescence accompanied the institution among them of a peace and harmony such as not even ancient Hellas ever enjoyed. Vespasian, however, on his arrival in the country took away her liberty, alleging their factiousness with other pretexts hardly justifying such extreme severity." (Philostratus II, The Life of Apollonius 5.41) it's seem that Nero good reputation lasted for a long time, as Augustine of Hippo wrote about it in 422: "Others, again, suppose that he is not even dead, but that he was concealed that he might be supposed to have been killed, and that he now lives in concealment in the vigor of that same age which he had reached when he was believed to have perished, and will live until he is revealed in his own time and restored to his kingdom. But I wonder that men can be so audacious in their conjectures" (Augustine of Hippo, City of God XX.19.3)
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I asked a friend of mine and he said that in Augustus' funeral oration for Agrippa which was published in 1970 (hence Reinhold's biography of Agrippa which was published in 1933 make no refrences to it) he called Varus the son in law of Agrippa which mean he was merried to an unknown daughter of Agrippa. Now because Cornelius Nepos suggest that Vipsania Agrippina was the only child of Agrippa and Caecilia Attica (Atticus, 19) and we know none of Julia daughters were old enought to merry in 12 BC the only option that is left is Marcella.
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Jona Lendering mention that Varus was merried to a daughter of Agrippa (thought I don't know his source) http://www.livius.org/q/quinctilius/varus.html Also there is a possiblty that D. Haterius Agrippa was the grandson of Agrippa and Marcella as Tacitus mention (Annals 2.51.2) "A contest then arose about the election of a praetor in the room of Vipstanus Gallus, whom death had removed. Germanicus and Drusus (for they were still at Rome) supported Haterius Agrippa, a relative of Germanicus." There also a certain P. Vipsanius Agrippa who appear on coins of Corinth during the time of Caligula and may have been desecended of Agrippa and Marcella.
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She had three children, a daughter with Agrippa,Vipsania Marcella, merried Publius Quinctilius Varus. from Iulius she had a son Lucius Antonius and a daughter Julia Antonia.
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Marcella was merried to Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, divorced after her brother death so Agrippa could merry Julia. Octavia then merried her to her step brother Iullus Antonius.
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Agrippina the younger? What made her the way she became?
Ingsoc replied to Octavia's topic in Imperium Romanorum
What exacly do you mean by "the way she was"? -
Her name is spelled as Aemilia Lepida, she was the great-granddaughter of Augustus.
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Here is a nice site about the serie and it's comparision to Robert graves original book and to anciet sources. I, Claudius Project
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Octavia was also the great-grandmother of Caligula.
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I think it's simply because at the time Rome had no competition in the world, if Caligula would have rule for example in the time when the Carthagian-Roman struggle was in it's prime the results for the status of Rome would be very diffrent.
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Thanks to all of you for your kind words!
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Curiosity is one thing, but the incessant attempt to rehabilitate Caligula shows all the moral clarity of a Carmela Soprano. Of course doubting Suetonius version to Caligula "madness" doesn't mean an attempt to rehabilitate, because even if he wasn't insane (which I tend to agree) he was still a brutal tyrant who lack any ability to rule the empire.
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It's very problematic understanding Caligula because the ancient source are fill with gossip and misunderstanding of his actions so it's hard to know what of them is true. For example Suetonius wrote "He did not wish to be thought the grandson of Agrippa, or called so, because of the latter's humble origin; and he grew very angry if anyone in a speech or a song included Agrippa among the ancestors of the Caesars. He even boasted that p439his own mother was born in incest, which Augustus had committed with his daughter Julia;" (Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars, The Life of Caligula, 23) Now we know that this passage is untrue and is no more that gossip about Caligula, in a letter that king Agrippa I send Caligula he refered to him as the grandson of Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, it's is also know that Caligula minted coins to commemerate his maternal grandfather.
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I think you mean to Tiberius.
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Of course the popular view that he was crazy is in itself rather disputed, since 27 BC when Augustus establish the Princeps and became Rome first emperor he held the real power however officialy the republic was "restored". now it's seem Caligula prefer to end this deception and establish an Eastern-Hellenistic style absolute monarchy, now some of his actions design to do that like proclaming himself a god (in the ancient world absolute rulers had to receive divine honors) or appointing his horse to consul (in order to humiliate the senate) were misunderstand as "crazy" by his contempereries and later generations.
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"Besides Octavia he later took two wives, Poppaea Sabina, daughter of an ex-quaestor and previously married to a Roman knight, and then Statilia Messalina, daughter of the great-granddaughter of Taurus, who had been twice consul and awarded a triumph. To possess the latter he slew her husband Atticus Vestinus while he held the office of consul." Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars, The Life of Nero, 35
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We don't know from what exacly she died, but infant deaths were not rare in the ancient world so it's not something unusuall.
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Yes, you wrote that the client kings in Judea ruled until 70es, this is wrong as the last Herodian king, Agrippa II died around 100.