Primus Pilus

A quote from Vin Diesel... "I knew that BET would be the perfect place to launch an animated series that celebrates an African mythology and a general that is probably the most notorious general of all time," Diesel said. "It's a story that resonates with everyone--it truly is a celebration of a general who is able to bring everyone together with the common cause to essentially fight for freedom." The notion that Hannibal was fighting for freedom against the evil Romans is ludicrous. His goal was revenge, conquest and glory, not some twisted notion of Spartacus like freedom for the opressed. Revisionism makes my ass wobble. [edit] sure the Romans weren't exactly the most easy going neighbors, but Hannibal's siege of Saguntum and invasion of Italy is what doomed his own nation.

Oh, this is going to be RICH! If anyone has any question in regards to historical accuracy there's the answer right there! I know this is about the cartoon but still, Vin has a hand in this too... Hamilcar was King of Carthage? He invaded Spain? AND England!?! And sponsorship by the BET will most certainly help perpetuate ethnic revisionist history. Plautus can you give us a link to where you found that press release? It's frightening how bad it is.

The Draco was probably introduced by Sarmatian cavalry in the early 2nd century AD. There are examples of it on Trajan's column proving it's use at that early stage, though it became the common standard much later. Fectio.org Roman Draco

Post count doesn't apply to the Off Topic forum. Perhaps that's it.

Yes, Roman auxilia in Judaea probably spoke various languages (including aramaic) based upon their ethnic origins, but the legionaries in the film would've been of Italian origin and most likely would've spoken Latin as the first choice. The non Romans in the film are the people speaking Aramaic. The actors playing Roman soldiers (Pilatus excluded) were speaking Latin. Whether Gibson's portrayal is right or wrong is not the question here, but the men in the film beating Jesus are clearly Roman legionaries. Citizen legionaries serving in Judaea at the time were from the western part of the empire where Latin was prevalent. See my first post in this thread for an explanation of legionaries present in the early 1st Century AD.

Phil, I agree that the notion of a single mass withdrawal of every available legionary from a single place while civilians weeped at the site is ridiculous. However, I see no real reason to doubt Zosimus suggestion that the troops were actually withdrawn to the continent. To me, it seems obvious that men were needed for the immediate defense of the empire and Britain's distance made its abandonment rather logical. But like you, it makes more sense that the men were mostly withdrawn well prior to Constantine's revolt. What we aren't able to prove or disprove is whether this happened over the course of 2 to 3 decades or all at once by imperial order. It sure seems like the first option would make more sense especially since many regulars were probably already displaced by various revolts/civil war. Perhaps there were only a few real cohorts left of Legio II when the final withdrawal took place, perhaps even less, but I personally feel no reason to doubt that there was some sort of an organized withdrawal of remaining regulars who manned the supply routes and ports. If this happened, it only makes sense that most regulars were long gone by the early part of the 5th century and the last removal of Roman forces may have been more symbolic than anything else. However, an organized withdrawal could have easily taken place prior to the revolt of Constantine... in effect opening the door for just such an occurence. Perhaps Zosimus (who used sources long since lost to us) was simply using tainted or slightly incorrect data. (Though its easy to doubt the accuracy of Geoffrey of Monmouth, it is quite practical that most of these legionaries were also gone by the time Magnus Maximus went gallavanting around the continent as well.) Personally I feel that Jack Whyte paints a very viable picture in his "Skystone" and immediate successor book despite it obviously being a novel. Quite interesting and entertaining at the same time for folks so inclined to "possibilities". PS. Is it not also rather evident that many locally recruited auxilia and transported 'foreign' forces remained and mingled with the populace long after the Roman departure. (Or is such evidence tainted by the mass influx of the Anglos, Saxons, Nords, Scotii, etc.)?

Now if only someone can find some lost quatrains of Nostradumbass, my worry over that will subside as well.

It also provided a sense of hope and social equality in a system which did not otherwise provide it. As Phil alluded to above, its another reason why it became so popular with the poor and with women. There may have been a great deal of consternation among the populace as Germanic tribes routinely poured over the borders of the frontiers and as civil war and economic crisis threatened the lives, properties and sanity of the populace for the better part of the 3rd century AD. The ideas of Christianity may have helped ease the the tensions caused in the daily lives of the people where perhaps the old gods appeared to be failing them.

Additionally I believe it was Marcus Aurelius who first instituted a form of birth certificate registration as part of the alimenta of the adoptive and Antonine emperors, but the details elude me. We do know that children of citizens wore the bulla until marriage or entry into adulthood, but there seems to be no adult equivalent. We also know that citizen men were traditionally identified by the toga virilis (or libera) on formal occasions, but they did not wander about at all times in such an unwieldy state of attire.

What about traders, who were peddling their wares? Or was this done more on water than on land? Allow a clarification.. very few people travelled for pleasure as we do in the modern day. Though you are correct that trading via water was preferred, but obviously not always practical. There were obviously land based traders who weren't part of some large merchant company and probably didn't have much more than an ox, a wagon and whatever was inside it. The topic really is an interesting question. Were not all citizenship identifications (paternal lineage, etc.) filed with the vestals in Rome, or was this simply for wills? Still this would have been terribly unpractical as the empire expanded beyond Italy (and even beyond the confines of the city for that matter). Perhaps each province held such records and perhaps even local administrative centers? However, if such records existed en masse, one would think that something would've survived. [edit] removed some redundancies already touched upon by Pantagathus

And very few people actually travelled in the Roman world (in comparison to modern times). Those who did were likely to be of the equestrian/aristocratic classes.

The discussion in this thread may help a bit... Fires of 64 Additionally stone may not 'burn to the ground" per se, but heat can still cause major structural damage to the compounds holding various stones together as well as the stone itself if hot enough, fire and ash can seriously stain the stone as well as destroy exterior painting, glasswork etc. In this regard, a stone building may not necessarily fall to the ground from 'burning', but it may become an eyesore at best, be rendered structurally unsound requiring repair, or be toppled by the intense heat. I'm certainly no physics expert however.

And here I always thought Disneyland was the "Happiest Place on Earth". Silly vikings, what do they know Who comes up with these crazy polls and such anyway? He should be sent to Congo.

Not only are his footnotes complete, but much like his entire narrative I love how they are also laden with various opinions and conjecture. Would not Gibbon pretty much be considered the father of the annotated footnote (at least in the writing of history anyway)?

Except it still wouldn't account for how Nessie (and her ancestry) survived for the last several million years in a small Scottish lake while all its other sea monster relatives have since perished from the earth.

At the end of Roman dominion over Britain there were at least 2 and perhaps 3 or 4 legions still serving there: VI Victrix, II Augusta, XX Valeria Victrix (this may or may not have still been in service in Britain but others may have more immediate knowledge of its fate as it disapears from the historical record in the 3rd century) and finally II Brittannica which was possibly established from a vexillation of II Augusta and made a full independent legion at some point. While some legionaries (VI Victrix and probably II Augusta) were very likely withdrawn to the main continent by Stilicho/Honorius in the late 4th or early 5th centuries, its clear that some remained (especially retired veterans, and clearly citizens remained within the communities that they had lived their entire lives).

Gibbons is still an essential read in my opinion regardless of any dating of the content. The style may be a bit different (written in the late 18th century) than what we are accustomed to today and the methods of delivering a scholarly review of history may have changed, but Gibbon is still quite highly regarded as secondary source material due to his excellent citing of ancient sources.

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Do also keep in mind that taxation and freedom/privilege was very regional, tribal and treaty status dependent. One tribe, the Iceni as mentioned before (who opposed the Claudian invasion and revolted in AD 47) certainly had more burdensome arrangements, while another the Atrebates (a long standing ally of Rome dating at least from the time of Caesar) may have lived under Roman rule with quite different circumstances.

Oh yes, I thought that was brilliant... forgot about that little gem.

While I agree with Cato that without Cicero, there very well may not have been an Augustus, but that partly illustrates my point that he was overrated. Clearly his intention was never such a development, but it happened in spite of him, and indeed with his aid. I suppose I should not knock him for failing in his attempts to re-establish Republican rule, but I can't help but let it influence my opinion. Cato at least fell on his sword for his beliefs (whether we agree or disagree on his position), though I suppose such a stand is so dramatic because it is relatively uncommon. Indeed we also have the unique responsibilty of thanking Catholicism for declaring Cicero as a righteous pagan and thereby preserving his work for posterity. By the by, like Clodius mentioned, I admire Cicero for the honest humanity in his writing and for the incredible perspective those words give us.

LOL, notice that I actually began the split from my own off-topic post so as not to lay blame elsewhere for the direction of the original thread. Of course you guys did take up the off-topic escapade with a amplified zealousness P.P., pray tell, what in the blue balzes is the topic now? I think it would now clearly fall into the "other miscellany" category. By the by, I enjoyed some Finger Lakes region wine brought home from my recent vacation to that area. A particular wine (Runway Red) from Deer Run Winery near Geneseo, NY is a table wine of the most exotic flavors. Frankly, I'd never tasted anything quite like it and am at a bit of a loss in how to describe it.

LOL, notice that I actually began the split from my own off-topic post so as not to lay blame elsewhere for the direction of the original thread. Of course you guys did take up the off-topic escapade with a amplified zealousness

No no, they'll find him with the lady of lake and excalibur in the belly of Nessie!

Agreed, but what I meant specifically was Cicero's own rather self-glorifying works. There are no such works from men like Scipio and Hannibal, and despite the same self promoting words of Caesar there were still plenty of others left to glorify his history (Plutarch, Appian, etc..) though our perspective and detail might be considerably different. In Cicero's case, there are also surviving accounts by other writers, just as there are accounts of men such as Lepidus, but (just as an example) Lepidus is often an after-thought compared to other prominent contemporaries. Cicero, without having left his own legacy through the written word, may be no more prominent than many other far more obscure names.