Primus Pilus

LMAO!!! I concur... Maim, torture, and kill. No trial (heck everyone knows they did it. Seems to me they were PROUD of it!) Please people, do I have to play Cato's role here? The charge and conduct of the trial was entirely dependent upon perspective. They were proud of the 'assassination' because in their minds, it was tyrannicide. Whether the action and charge is lawful and/or justified or not should be the issue of the trial, not whether or not they did it. Based on our debates in this forum, I would think this has potential to be an excellent in class exercise. I hope the defense is adequate and dedicated to the cause or this project could turn into a circus of popular opinion

Neos, sorry to pick on you here, but I'm giddy with ironic spelling nazi delight. Did your instructor at least ask you

I am selecting Africa as the most important for the sake of discussion, though I don't know if such a label can truly be applied. Africa was not only a major granary but its conquest (along with Hispania) is what transformed Rome into an empire and a world power. Asia Minor was perhaps the most prestigious and brought great wealth into Rome, Egypt was comparable to both Asia and Africa for contributions of wealth and grain, various frontier provinces offered buffers for the 'Italian' heartland, Britain and Hispania brought great mineral contributions, etc., the Hellenized east continued Rome's cultural advancement, etc., but without the conquest of Carthage, I suppose the others may have been moot?

Thank you for pointing out the obvious, but the question in this case is not whether the R in SPQR is an abbreviation for Romanus or Romana but the true context of the term Populusque. I haven't read Mackey's book so I can't be sure if he used Romana or Romanus or if this was simply a mistake by the original poster, but a professor of Mackey's credentials should at least be given the courtesy of listening to the argument.

6 years of mixed business/accounting and classical study just to end up with a BS (interpret that however you'd like ) was enough for me. Ok so I'm slow, but I couldn't decide what I wanted to do

And never feed them beafarino.

Yes, a conglomeration of thoughts rolled into one messy ball I suppose. Essentially, an evolution from 'state' citizenship to parish or diocese membership that precluded most of what defined the citizenship. Of course this happened over a long period of time, so Caracalla's initial constitutional reform is not a single event that completely altered the Roman state of mind. Anyway, forgive my off-topicness...

Agreed, for the 'provincials' recently enfranchised, but to those who previously held citizenship it would be considered unpopular. Much like the Senate resisted any inclusion of outsiders into its ranks, the citizenry also liked its own exclusivity. It did allow Caracalla to increase the treasury, and provided new recruits for the legions, but I suspect that over time, it had the effect of 'breaking up the club', so to speak. It seems to me that Roman society may have became a 'what have you done for me lately crowd' rather than a 'what can we do for Rome'. Just a talking point really...

An interesting question. There is evidence that aristocratic families of the 'post Roman west' were still touting membership in the Roman Senate (long after its function as a governing body). However I quite frankly don't recall any detailed information regarding citizenship after the key reduction in its prestige (ie. Caracalla's Constitutio Antoniniana as you mention). While I'm sure there was still a distinction (at least in theory) between actual Romans and provincials, my guess is that over the century and a half between Caracalla and Theodosius, membership in a Church 'congregation' may have started to become more important than actual citizenship (since it was non exclusive anymore anyway). On a side note, I think its quite an important yet often ignored key event in the eventual 'fall of the west'. The lack of 'civic pride' once afforded by citizenship had virtually disappeared and the meaning of what it was to be 'Roman' seems to have slipped right along with the desire to serve both the state and the army.

For more info on 'uncleaned coins', try here

Yes, there is plenty of information known about ancient coinage. In fact, coins are a primary source of ancient research. You may want to get a bit more specific with your question.

Keep in mind that we sometimes let a bit of partisanship come through in our debates/discussions. Partisanship??? When discussing Caesar??? I'm shocked--shocked--that you could accuse anyone of partisanship! Yes, I know its hard to imagine... but it seems to seep through just a little bit here and there. Now back to errors for HBO Rome. I thought the depiction of Cleopatra as a drug induced whore was ridiculous. The popular opinion we now have of Cleopatra is largely the result of Octavian's propoganda. While she may have used feminine guile to seduce both Caesar and later Antonius, we can be quite sure that Cleopatra was far more than a simple temptress. In that episode they also had Vorenus and Pullo rescue her from the clutches of Ptolemy when this was not the case. Cleopatra was exiled and essentially in hiding (though she may have been in Syria trying to recruit an army at the time of Caesar's arrival . Unfortunately I can't remember all the details of that episode, so its difficult to contradict in exact terms, but I know there were several problems. Perhaps some others here have a better memory of it.

I think it's more remarkable that people are willing to discard or discredit a belief that has lasted 2000 years because some author decided to write his own version of the story 2000 years later without a shred of evidence to prove it. Hey, if it makes everyone feel better... I find both equally implausible.

Keep in mind that we sometimes let a bit of partisanship come through in our debates/discussions. Some of the points regarding law, justification and culpability in the final fall of the Republic is very open to interpretation and perspective. With that in mind it might be far more difficult to discern the accuracy of the show regarding some of the 'politics' vs. the types of errors that Skarr pointed out regarding Caesar's triumph.

I suppose on excellent example is Legio XXII Deiotariana. It was levied by the King of Galatia, Deiotarus (hence the name of the legion) in the Roman style and with Roman assistance in 48 BC. Under Augustus' reforms of the legions it became a regular part of the Roman standing army.

The articles have not yet been written. I'm only one person with limited available time for research and writing. Slowly but surely though.

In this case, Plutarch is making it very clear that Cato's suicide, even if under horrible circumstances, was not only honorable under Roman tradition but was actually courageous and glorious.

Don't blame the messenger.. just the unwashed masses that gobble the stuff up. Despite its subject matter, it is still a work of fiction. I believe one of own forum members uses Caesar's famous quote as his sig... ...quod fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt... Because in general men willingly believe what they wish

Suicide was not just an acceptable way to avoid dishonor from criminal prosecution or defeat in battle, but in the case of Cato it was also the ultimate political statement... Cato's suicide in the face of Caesar's victory at Thapsus according to Cassius Dio... And a more dramatic version according to Plutarch...

I still haven't read it... waiting for my wife to finish Angel's and Demons so I can read that one first. I understand its supposed to be a very good story, I don't really care about the truth or fiction debate of it. Then again... my stack of unread books is repulsive, and who knows when I'll ever get to the Da Vinci Code. (I am very much enjoying Keveaney's Sulla at the moment).

I believe that Yahweh, much like Zeus and the 'leading gods' of other cultures was associated as Jove or Jupiter by the Romans. In that respect in the Roman perspective, perhaps Yahweh may have been already a part of the Roman pantheon and it was just Judaism that ignored the rest. As far as I know, however, there isn't any evidence of the Romans adopting the name Yahweh as a specific member (by name) of their own pantheon. I am speaking strictly from a cursory viewpoint however and have never put any real research into the topic.

This post is a little too modern to truly fit in the 'post Roman history' forum. Nothing wrong with the discussion... I just moved it to the off topic area.

I'm pretty much open to whatever is most convenient for the family. Just throw me in the passing cart and be done with it... MORTICIAN: Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead! [clang] Bring out your dead! [clang] Bring out your dead! [clang] Bring out your dead! [clang] Bring out your dead! CUSTOMER: Here's one -- nine pence. DEAD PERSON: I'm not dead! MORTICIAN: What? CUSTOMER: Nothing -- here's your nine pence. DEAD PERSON: I'm not dead! MORTICIAN: Here -- he says he's not dead! CUSTOMER: Yes, he is. DEAD PERSON: I'm not! MORTICIAN: He isn't. CUSTOMER: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill. DEAD PERSON: I'm getting better! CUSTOMER: No, you're not -- you'll be stone dead in a moment. MORTICIAN: Oh, I can't take him like that -- it's against regulations. DEAD PERSON: I don't want to go in the cart! CUSTOMER: Oh, don't be such a baby. MORTICIAN: I can't take him... DEAD PERSON: I feel fine! CUSTOMER: Oh, do us a favor... MORTICIAN: I can't. CUSTOMER: Well, can you hang around a couple of minutes? He won't be long. MORTICIAN: Naaah, I got to go on to Robinson's -- they've lost nine today. CUSTOMER: Well, when is your next round? MORTICIAN: Thursday. DEAD PERSON: I think I'll go for a walk. CUSTOMER: You're not fooling anyone y'know. Look, isn't there something you can do? DEAD PERSON: I feel happy... I feel happy. [whop] CUSTOMER: Ah, thanks very much. MORTICIAN: Not at all. See you on Thursday. CUSTOMER: Right.

This will also improve in the near future pending some changes in the works.

There's not alot of detailed ancient source material, but Paterculus gives us a little evidence that there were survivors... Book II Chapter 120 From Bill Thayer's Lacus Curtius And Tacitus...