Primus Pilus

Pertinax made me aware of an issue where 'guests' could spam the gallery comments section. I was able to turn it off. Hopefully members can delete spammed comments in their own galleries? If not let us know.

I apologize for how off-topic this thread has become.

On the positive side, at least it seems to inspire many to look deeper. At any rate, I recall Livy mentioning a concept of the praetoria regarding Scipio Africanus as far back as the Second Punic War, but I can't find the appropriate passages. The first lasting idea of the cohors praetoria comes from Scipio Aemilianus and the siege of Numantia in 133 BC. From Appian:

I really think the main point is that the idea of the patron saint developed as a counter to polytheism. We know that in strict definition the Saint is not a god because Catholicism is monotheistic, but the pagan origin remains. The idea of a saint being a patron of a particular earthly function is hardly strict monotheism nor is it something the christians developed on their own, completely independent of established polytheistic concepts.

Absolutely, hence Patron Saints. What better way to convert the country folk than to replace their gods with equivelant saints.

Unlike Trajan who is referred to as a provincial because his family was from Italica Hispania (Seville). Septimus Severus was quite likely a Phoenician. While Trajan appears to have been a displaced Italian (the Ulpius clan was from Umbria) unless the Traianus line was adopted into the Ulpian as some suggest, there seems to be no record of a Roman or Italian Severus line. Personally it seems very likely that Severus was the first true provincial (non Italian) emperor. Poor old Cato the Elder would have been rolling in his proverbial grave to know a Carthaginian ruled Rome.

I would now equate the US' move to develop and field the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) as the equivalent of the Romans adopting the small, shift Liburna... Do we know how much use the Liburna saw in the northern fleets... notably Classis Britannica? Considering the lack of Roman seamanship in the rough northern waters, I wonder how the smaller vessels would have fared in comparison to larger cousins. Perhaps better I suppose, but did the Romans see it this way? The reduction of ship size in the Roman navy was as much about being practical and logical as anything else. Since there were no rivals, especially any with hulking behemoths, the continued construction of large ships would've been a waste of resources. Did the Liburna see much activity vs. the northern (as opposed to the Vandals in the Mediterranean circa the 5th century) Germanics and Norse? We know that great energy was focused on building land defenses on the Saxon Shore, but could the Romans have fared better simply with a the use of more maneuverable vessels of their own.

[quote name='Julia C

As a resident of suburban Detroit, we are constantly barraged with national imagery of how miserable we are. Well how could the Onion resist us I do love the Onion.

[quote name='Julia C

My DVR is set. Even if you aren't into the religious aspect of this story, it should be a fascinating look in the archaeology and preservation of ancient texts.

[quote name='Julia C

[quote name='Julia C

If anyone should know... it should be Jesus.

Should I be embarrassed that I find Vin Diesel entertaining? (Well I liked Pitch Black and Chronicles of Riddick anyway which are the only two of his movies that I've seeen). I will see this movie out of morbid curiosity, but I expect to be horrified by the butchering done to history. My guess is that the plot will include such hollywoodisms as... Hannibal will single handedly slay most of the Romans at Cannae whilst also somehow using brute strength alone to stop a rampant elephant from trampling some innocent bystanders (perhaps punching it in the trunk or some such thing). One of these bystander will probably be an overly attractive Roman nymph who promptly pledges eternal love to the greatness that was Hannibal, yet will be tormented by the sight of so many of her fellow Romans giving their lives for the home that she adores.

Just so folks know, I've had a couple of complaints about damaged maps (banged up and torn edges... which will be replaced of course). I've ordered some poly poster sleeves to help provide additional protection in the shipping process. Primus, My map did have a couple of tears on the edges.. However, I have already given it for framing and the frame maker said that the mat would cover the damages and would not be visible. The map looks great and it will take a couple of weeks for them to frame it. It's going to cost me a pretty penny though, as frames are pretty expensive and I went with an antique frame that matches the look and colors on the map. Since I've only actually heard this from a couple of people I just hope there aren't some out there who remain quiet and unhappy about damage, either slight or major, rather than let us know when we would gladly replace it to their satisfaction. Though I'm sure these sleeves we ordered should really should help protect those edges while en route. At any rate I just had one framed as well. I was a bit shocked (hmm more like flabbergasted) at the cost but am extremely pleased with the result.

Mons Graupius would qualify as well... 10,000 Caledonians to 360 Romans (or so Tacitus tells us). But that sort of massively uneven rout was fairly common in ancient battles. At least they were reported as such.

Oh poor misunderstanding Pertinax. As the post apocolyptic world heats up and the Cyborg wars spread into what we now consider cooler climates... the melted polar caps will reveal prefectly preserved Mastodons. The Martians in their infinate wisdom will have figured out how to revive these newly freed mammoths exactly as they were in the orginal state. Those Martians are ingenious. Maybe that's what will set off the Cyborg guilt-laden attacks in the first place? Obviously I am doing everything I can to continue delving into the absurd

I threw this list together. I'm not sure if it really tells us anything. (looked like heck as a post so I made it a word document) ageofimperium.doc

Yesterday while playing in the apology thread I was also trying to get a bit of research done. This is not all conclusive of course, but might help form some more opinion. I keep coming back to the afore-mentioned age of imperium as an important point of consistency in which princeps are depicted. This works in several cases, but is not across the board. We mentioned Octavian and Vespasian earlier and age of imperium could work as the basis for their particular imagery. Augustus is an oddity because of the extreme length of his rule. The obvious changes to his physical appearance over this time is not really displayed as we have discussed, but in the case of Vespasian, its quite likely that not much would've changed in the perception of the average Roman from his age of imperium (60) to his death (70). What we generally find with the emperors is that there is a massive campaign to promote the new leader upon his recognition as heir and/or immediately after his actual succession which certainly makes sense. For Octavian/Augustus, again his case his odd because of the circumstances associated with the civil wars and the final destruction of the Republic. It's difficult to understand exactly how old Octavian is supposed to look in his various statues, but in my eyes he looks considerably younger than the 36ish he would have been at the time of the second settlement in 27 BC. His imagery was already being presented all over the world well before. Obviously after this time, statues continued to be spread around the empire, but his default age of appearance had already been established. Looking closely at the existing Augustan busts I can start to see that he may indeed appear more as a thirty something in many of them, which would have been massively produced after the culmination of his power. However this still does not account for why he still appears as a younger man in statues depicting his status as Pontifex Maximus (which didn't occur until 13 BC at the age of 50ish). Again all we are left with in theory is age of imperium, vanity, uniformity of image, perhaps even cost as choices. Because Augustus is difficult to pin down for a multitude of reasons I started looking for a better test case. I think Marcus Aurelius is an excellent example. He was named heir to Antoninus Pius by Hadrian at the age of 17 and succeeded Antoninus at the age of 40. While there are some busts that could arguably depict Aurelius as younger than 40, the great bulk of his images are of the middle-age 'stoic' appearance. If he appears a bit younger in some, perhaps its the rendition of the artist or any number of minor factors. The main thing is that there is no great collection of statues of him upon being named Caesar at 17, nor much in between. (Though here is one of him presumably around that age) Unfortunately coinage imagery just isn't generally of the quality to depict subtle differences in age (unless we are talking about the difference between a Geta and Septimius Severus for example) Here's an image of Marcus Aurelius as Caesar. Does he look much different than how he looked in later statues? Hard to tell from a coin image. After Marcus we have Commodus who was given joint imperium at the age of 17. However, because he succeeded his father at the age of 19, we could be satisfied that statues between the two points would be comparable. Commodus is clearly depicted as a fairly young man in a great deal of sculpture. We sometimes make the mistake of thinking that Commodus ruled a very short time, but he in fact ruled for 12 years from 180 - 192 making him about 31 when he was assassinated. The interesting thing here is we do see some fairly different imagery of him but its largely because of the association with Hercules and not necessarily a change in age. Here's some Commodus images. Just scroll through. What we have really is a situation where we can't make a determination. Other than Augustus there was no emperor who came to power as a youth, and lived into old age. Most came to power already advanced in years, and those who didn't (Gaius, Nero, Commodus, even Titus and Domitian...) never quite made it. A nice collection of imperial images Rome or Bust

I shall apologize, for PP. I am laden with his guilt. Damn, I apologize for guilt transference. Its a heavy burden you bear. I also apologize to Gaius Octavius for not being aware of whatever it is that I didn't apologize for earlier. Allow me also to pre-emptively apologize just in case I am totally missing something. I also apologize to Germanicus for acting a fool while he sleeps. But since it is about midnight here as I type this he should in theory be awake on the opposite side of the world. If he misses this he will have to apologize for missing my effort to include him. Although I should also apologize for assuming that he will be awake at this very moment. I also apologize to those of you attempting to resurrect this thread from the abyss, also for saying this thread is in the abyss, also for anyone wasting their time reading this, also for suggesting that willingly reading this thread is a waste of your time... I think you get the point. Er well I apologize if you don't

The Romans were very active in the northern waterways as well. They maintained large organized fleets based at Gesioracum in Belgica and Colonia Agrippina on the Rhine in Germania Inferior. Later resources were shifted to eastern Britannia to provide support to the Saxon shore defense as Roman power waned. As for the Norse and later Vikings... certainly they were fantastic sailors but the style was completely different. Their ships (the predecessors to the traditional longships) were essentially enormous canoes built for compact crews for speed and maneuverability. The Germanic/Norse intention was not to engage a Roman fleet at sea but to use stealth and speed to outmaneuver them and attack targets on land, certainly resulting in terrible frustration by the larger and well structured Roman fleets. Some excellent examples of pre mast norse ships Nydam Boats Pictures of Roman (and Greek) triremes. The quadrireme was actually more common in the later period but looked and functioned in much the same way except for the additional 4th rower per oar (hence quad vs. tri).

I just noticed the recombinate Mastadon in the background... ^_^ LOL indeed. And I just realized I have no idea what the 'M' on our poor repentant cyborg's chest represents. Martian, Mastodon, Moonlapse...? (I'll be good and move this butchered example of a thread to off-topic. Uhh with apologies to original thread starter Philhellene for said butchering.)

Apology accepted Oh lord... is the hapless Martian waving at his apologetic tormentor? Thanks guys, you've given me a hearty laugh here at the office. I'll expect an apology if there are any ramifications of course.

Hmm, after a few minutes to reflect on my harsh tone against Mastodons, in addition to apologizing for calling them bastards, should I also apologize for calling them woolly? Should I have said hair-enhanced or smoothness-challenged or something to that effect?