CiceroD

Im not so sure N.N. After all there are still Maya and their religion (without human sacrifice) and language persist still. Rather I think Diamond wants to portray non-western examples since many do not hold preconcieved ideas on their collapses. Thus in his words they are more "Instructive" Than Rome would be.

Yeah I know. I just wanted to know some specifics (If there are any at this juncture)

when were wax Imagos taken? and how was one granted the privilage of one? I know that these Masks were then put out in the Atrium, but were they displayed like they were in the Rome TV series?

Talking about up and coming bad Rome movies Has anyone seen the trailer for "The Last Legion" ? Apparently they have a girl in tight pants swinging blades Xena-style and a Sword of Destiny lol. Wow I guess I really dont know too much about 476 A.D.

I honestly haven't heard of this. What happened in the Fayoum?

I dont know if this will help the discussion, but according to the March 2006 issue of National Geographic the term Celt comes from the Greek Keltoi from the sixth century BCE to describe barbarians beyond the Danube. Therefore its very unlikely that anyone ever called themselves Celts. "Little suggests that these people united or ever called themselves Celts" Tom O'Neill But I think that its important to keep these broad classifications such as Scythian Germanic and indeed Celtic to describe what would be, to most readers, unrecognisable tribal names.

I received this book for Christmas and I have thoroughly enjoyed it. However to my dismay Diamond barely mentions Rome at all. He instead uses it only to discuss the difference between long term causes e.g. debasement of currency and immediate ones e.g. Odoacer. While it is true that the book's focus is primarily on Environmental mismanagement, the book outlines a five point framework for causes of collapse. They are 1) Environmental Damage 2) Climate Change 3) Enemy Cultures 4) Loss of a critical ally or trade partner 5) Societal Responses to Problems I assume we all can credit #3 as having an important contribution in the fall. It also seems that most of the scholarly work on the fall concerns #5 the poor policies choices of the Romans. These include the rise of Christianity, the debasement of currency to stretch gold & silver reserves, and the barbarianization of the army. My question to the Forum is are there any examples of environmental damage or the other Diamondian factors that weakened the later Roman Empire?

But where and when do these "Roman Days" happen?

I would say no. I never saw any direct or indirect reference to it being in the League. Technically Capua is/was located in Campania (but very close to the Latin border) and although was once under Estrsucan control, I believe it was controlled by the Samnites for the majority of the period of Rome's participation in the League. I believe shortly before the league dissolved Capua entered into a bilateral alliance with Rome to expel the Samnites and expand Rome's influence further South. I thought that the Samnites were a tribal people.

No, but we have plenty of Quakers. And Amish. And Mennonites. And under-educated, hygiene free rednecks who might as well just be home in Alabama. It's a beautiful mosaic of socio-religious diversity. Or something. Maybe you should go over what I was saying at the time. It certainly wasnt about questioning the diversity of America

So any one of these towns could have come to rule the world. hmm Interesting.

Long have I thought Northern Neil about what weve done to the Indians, and it was really really wrong. It always brings we Yanks down a notch to think that every mile of the country represents dead or cheated Indians. (Anyone who has seen Dances with Wolves would agree with me) You are right to compare it to the Age of Imperialism. It was the same Racist thinking in action. "they're just savages" idea I think that the difference is there are relatively few Native Americans left (There isnt a single reservation in my home state of Pennsylvania). Whereas British settlers never displaced the populations of Rhodesia and India. Sure Victorian technology allowed western powers to exploit them but the dieseases of the tropics precluded replacing them. Giving up the Midwest to the Native Americans would be similar to a campaign to "Give Britain back to Britons" so all you Anglo-Saxons get out and let the Welsh have it. Of course like all analogies this is massively simplistic. There is a HUGE difference in time of ownership. But it makes one wonder.

I don't think that we think of ourselves as an empire. We certainly don't think of ourselves as the suzerain of Havana or the world. We simply have a proto-moron running the show now; and he has failed at all his masters have him instructed on. I don't think that any American wants to run the show anywhere When discussion first began of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" I knew many many people who didn't bat an eyelid that the majority of the UN was opposed. Is this the action of a humble nation state? Wasn't the UN supposed to prevent WW3? Now weve gone against the UN and Guess What? the world is destabilized. The general "F--- You" cowboy mentality has lead us down bad roads I say we have enough chauvanism to be considered an Empire, and lately the life expectancy of Empires have been drastically reduced.

Sadly we might of had an Alba Longan equivilant

as hard as ive tried I cant find a list of the members of the old League. Can anyone help me? Also your take on what if the League had prevailed over Rome.

This was also the main story line behind The Lost Legion Is this ethnic group that is awaiting this momentus news called the Wusun?

Its true that many times Invention is driven by inventers and engineers. But if anyone has read Guns Germs and Steel Jared Diamond makes a point that often technology is invented by accident or for esoteric reasons and then only applied for reasons of need or want. The example he gives is Edison's Phonograph. When Edison invented it, he wanted people to record their dying words on it. He thought that recording music was a silly and undignified use for it. Gunpowder also comes to mind. I had heard that it was invented by Chinese physicians as medicine. (Some Medicine!) My point is, even though Hero and the Greeks in their Ivory tower did not see a practical use for it does not guarentee that someone else (Hmm maybe the practical minded Romans) might not wonder what else Hero could've moved other then temple doors.

Caracalla, who seems to have trusted no-one but his troops, increased legionary pay to 675 denarii. I assume that Caesar raised the men's pay in order to keep them loyal ( he threw money around anyway) But remember that the Later Roman Empire was rife with inflation. their denarii had progressively less and less silver in them. Caracalla might have simply been picking up the slack. Does anyone know the value of Denarii from Caracallas' time to compare that of Caesar's?

Certainly things would have been going down hill for a long time even before the fall. But its true that there wasnt necessarily one big quake and it all came tumbling down. While Alaric's sack would have done much damage. The current devastation would have been a slow process of quarrying the ruins for their stone.

Well of course "Portents" were always very important. Dreams came from the Gods as was illustrated in the Illiad Of course we know that they took the Auspices and Haruspices Sibyls of course were vessels through which the Gods could speak. however I dont know that they themseves really spoke to the Gods. If we take the Pythia of Delphi as an example she would drool and go into a frenzy and mutter gibberish that would then be "interpreted" by a priest. The Romans certainly must have believed this Greek convention or else why would they have put so much faith behind the Sibylline Books? But did they consider their Sibyls to be Insane? good question! As for any Joe Schmo who said that they spoke to the Gods, I would think that would raise eyebrows. Theyd think somthing to the effect of "well why does Apollo speak to you of all people?" The Romans and the Greeks were very Ritualistic people. and to go against the elaborate systems set up by Augurs and Haruspices would seem innapropriate. In short I think they wouldnt have written someone of as a looney necessarily but thaey would have been suspicious

Please tell me you are joking, Cicero D? I assure you Augusta I am neither joking nor insane I think its important to understand so called "weird" religions. Where do you think the Romans would be if they understood that executing Christians ad bestiam would never get them anywhere. and my (Not that theres anything wrong with that) is to let everyone know that Im not being judgemental even though I wouldnt be able to stomach an animal sacrifice

Im interested in how Graeco-Roman Pagans over here worship, Ursus. Do you get your ceremonies from ancient texts, and therefore are more historically accurate than the Orphics? Do you perform animal sacrifices? (not that theres anything wrong with that) Do you have cult statues of the Gods? Im asking out of simple curiosity

Much attention has been lavished on the Steam Ball of Hero of Alexandria as well as the water mill "Factory" at Barbegal in Southern France. Many would point out that the Empire had the technology to realize the dream of an Industrial Revolution. For whatever reason, be it the abundance of slaves or simple oversight, this did not come to pass of course. Even so, I would like to get your opinions of how Classical society would have dealt with the challenges of Industrialization.

So where and when does this go down? Outside DC

"I remember seeing the Ancient Discoveries" on him Did he "Invent" the automatic 20 minute play running on seeds from a hopper? That invention is what floors me! I would think that such a marvel would have been discussed by other sources. Wouldn't you? They did mention that much of Hero's (Heron on the show) work went up in flames with the library of Alexandria. so he could have done much we dont know about