P.Clodius

By the adoration shown at his funeral. How many people rioted when Cato died? Hmmm...This source is good enough for your information on Cato. Cherry picking again? You mean that system of voting blocks that was heavily weighted in favour of the 'haves'? By the Senate, therefore it was legally binding.

If someone needs a hand doing the db part I could do it, from a tech perspective that is....

Silentium, you're too silent. Come back and post more pics of rome. I love the BW ones. Happy bday.

Any of the lost works..Particularly Livy's, and Polio's.

PP, is it possible to add to the list or no?

Pyrrus was trained in the Macedonian tradition/methods and he fought against the early legions and won. However, he paid so dearly for his two victories he said something along the lines; "One more victory like that and we're screwed!"

"You extra-large philistine!" HAHAHAHAHAHA

Whoa there..This is not a debating society. Neither do I do need to submit my thesis to a panel of my peers. This is an internet forum. Now I have cited two or three secondary sources. These sources are infinitely more 'expert' on the subject matter I would argue than any of us here. Also, those same sources have been used in the past to support this argument and that argument. Therefore their statements on a particular subject are relevant are they not? Now all I am doing is shining the spotlight on a subject who is continually rammed down everyones throat as being angelic in nature, who's sheeit don't stink, someone who is above reproach. When statements that begin with "At the risk of making my namesake turn over in his grave..." I am going to shine the spotlight back. This thread is about Ambitus, electoral corruption, and the respected, often cited, and often lauded secondary sources I have quoted are unanimous in stating that Cato Minor was guilty of corruption.

Tells it like it is....

I have the book, have had it for sometime now but have yet to get around to reading it. Germanicus was trying to get me to read it back in the day...I'm currently re-reading Holland's Rubicon, great book.

I'm tired of quoting primary sources that you ignore. Feel free to make up whatever nonsense you like since you're apparently unconstrained by any facts. Next up: Cato eats babies! I didn't make them up, Syme, Gruen, Everitt did....Must re-constrain myself...must...

So scholars/authors like Syme, Everitt, Gruen (whom you yourself have lauded) are to be discounted, or cherry picked? Seems you don't like criticism of Cato, who was probably influenced more through belligerent inebriation than any 'moral' cause. He was just another politician with a gimmick, lionized by a ruling class who's power was on the wane. Evidently Cato was as guilty of Ambitus as was Caesar, Clodius, et al.

"Cato gathered a great fund to carry by bribery the election of Bibulus, his daughter's husband." Syme The Roman Revolution, pp 34. Ambitus in its clearest form, no?

Interpretation is the key word here. The key word here is "HIS". Constitution shmonstitution! Hmmm...Nothing to be said here. What was it, 7000 talents? A loser trying to make himself look good?

No, you haven't read my quote have you. It is in reference to a bill submitted by a Tribune to have ALL of Clodius' legislation overturned, including Cato's appointment (therefore his enrichment). He bends the rules when it suits him (Everitt), he bribes (Gruen), where there is smoke there is fire. Ergo Cato was corrupt.

Hijack? We're talking about electoral corruption, clearly Cato's corruption is relevant, no?

On the subject of Cyprus..."It was possible to mount a plausible case against the legality of Clodius's acts as Tribune---on the grounds that his renunciation of patrician status had been handled improperly and, accordingly, his election was invalid. However, his reforms had attracted enthusiastic popular support and it would be unwise to disturb them. Even Cato took a lenient line on this topic, because he did not want to see his annexation of Cyprus nullified. It is disconcerting that the uncompromising constitutionalist was willing to bend his principles when his interests were at stake." Everitt Cicero, pp 147-148.

The "Hitler made me do it" argument didn't fly too well at Nurenburg. So you're saying my copy of Gruen is different than yours? Mine clearly states indulging in bribery. Cato's corruption cannot be camouflaged by a play on words.

According to Gruen..."Cato was not averse to sponsoring grain laws, thereby outbidding his opponents, or to indulging in bribery, if this could bring his supporters into power." I don't think he'd do too much turning in his grave, he's probably drunk anyway. Gruen, Last Generation of the Roman Republic, pp. 54

Cicero was a Sullan, or Caesarian perhaps?

Wiki on Clementia; "In Roman mythology, Clementia was the goddess of forgiveness and mercy. She was deified as a celebrated virtue of Julius Caesar, who was famed for his forbearance. In 44 BC, a temple was consecrated to her by the Roman Senate. Within this temple stood a cult statute of Caesar and Clementia clasping hands. The was headwear to express Clementia, a crown made of oak leaves, which Caesar is frequently imaged as wearing. Caesar was considered to have this virtue. In a letter to his friend Atticus, Cicero is discussing Caesar's clementia: "You will say they are frightened. I dare say they are, but Ill be bound they're more frightened of Pompey than of Caesar. They are delighted with his artful clemency and fear the other's wrath." Again in For Deistarus Cicero dicusses Caesar's virtue of Clementia. "Yes, you, Gaius Caesar, are the only conqueror in 34 whose hour of triumph none save combatants have fallen. We, free men born in freedom's fairest clime, so far from finding you a tyrant, have seen in you a leader of unbounded mercy in the day of victory. There is not much information surrounding Clementia's cult; it would seem that she was merely an abstraction of a particular virtue, one that was revered in conjunction with revering Caesar and the Roman state. "

How many times were Ahenobarbus, Cato, and Scipio defeated? Once, once, and .... once So you're saying none of these individuals were at Pharsalus? A quick wiki search..."After first reducing Caesar's army at the battle of Dyrrhachium (where Cato commanded the port), the army led by Pompey was ultimately defeated by Caesar in the battle of Pharsalus (48 BC). Cato and Metellus Scipio, however, did not concede defeat and escaped to the province of Africa to continue resistance from Utica."

When he bought them off, how much did Caesar pay Ahenobarbus, Pompey, Scipio, Cato, and Labienus? Nothing, they didn't deserve it. So let's drop the "Caesar the Merciful" charade, shall we? It wasn't a charade it was documented. Beaten once and you will receive, beaten twice and you'll pay the price.

When he bought them off, how much did Caesar pay Ahenobarbus, Pompey, Scipio, Cato, and Labienus? Nothing, they didn't deserve it. They were traitors to the roman people and only served themselves for their personal enrichment.

You're missing a word or something here--this sentence is gibberish. Are we in school? Do we get grades? No, but if I don't understand what the heck you're saying, then I can't respond. Do you think this rule applies only in school? Do you need a grade to apply this basic element of communication? He's saying you're wrong and political murder is not justified, especially one who's appointments should not fall under the law you cited. Dictator, one who talks and everyone listens. Legally appointed I might add!