The Augusta

OK - it's official - Group C - the Group Of Death is heartbreaking to watch. How often has this occurred in major tournaments? We have here four excellent sides - yes, Romania are playing their part as far as the entertainment goes - and two guaranteed to go home on Tuesday night. So far, all we know for sure is that it won't be Holland who go home - and congratulations to them, they have been magnificent. I didn't think they could repeat their performance against us, but tonight against France they were, if anything, even better. OK, they play on the counter attack, and their defence is a little fragile to say the least (which is the main reason I still say they won't win this tournament), but tonight's match, following on the heels of the exciting Romania-Azzurri clash was marvellous. It has been a day of the sort of superb quality football England can only dream about. As for Italy V Romania - it had to be Mutu, didn't it? The crack-head ex-Chelsea guy! But then, lo and behold, another ex-Chelsea guy (Christian Panucci) equalised for Italy. Gigi's save from Mutu's penalty was massive, and I still see it as something of an omen. Luca is getting nearer all the time. However, I still can't see the Azzurri winninig this tournament even if they get through - they have no defence. Gigi is playing as a five-man defence at the moment, and he can only keep that up so long, bless him. France V Italy shoudl be an absolute cracker of a game, and it is criminal that one of these teams will go out. Heck, it wouold be criminal if Romania went out too, after their display today. They showed that they have far more about them than just negative defending, as they did against France. As for Holland - yet another ex-Chelsea lad assisted the second Dutch goal and scored a belter for their third. Why did we sell him? Ah, yes, because he was injury-prone, selfish and fell over when alyone blew on him. But no-one could fault him tonight. A fantastic group! Whoever made the draw for these four to be in one group with only bloody Spain as the opposition in this half of the draw should be shot. Now that we have had two games from a few teams I am sizing up all round quality, and I am leaning very much towards Portugal, who have defence, attack and midfield capabilities in equal measure. Well, we will know more next week, but so far, except for Sweden v Greece - this has been a really enjoyable tournament. Everyone's thoughts welcome. ETA: I have just seen Maladict's post!!!! Mal - I love you, but on this occasion we are enemies. How dare you!!! I am going to risk the mods' anger and tell you to sod off!

Well done to you, Vigs - I was rooting for the Austrians, and the penalty was only justice for all those missed chances in the first half. It was an enjoyable enough game, to be honest, although I thought the Poles had a bit more quality in the second half. But as you rightly said, their goal was blatantly offside, so justice was done in the end. English ref, you see! On a sour note - what on earth happened to the Germans today? I loathe Croatia as a football team - always have, and always will - but I hav eto hold my hands up and say they played well today and deserved the victory. However, Germany have got their bad game over with now. I have no doubts they will get through. So, sadly, Viggen, that will mean Austria and Poland don't progress. But I'll keep my fingers crossed for you when you meet the mighty Deutscher.

Herod Agrippa was indeed named in honour of Marcus, G-Man. Someone will come up with the source for you - I've just got in from work! I can tell you that he was named in his honour by his grandfather Herod the Great due to the concessions Agrippa made to the Jews during his vice-regency and maius imperium over the eastern provinces from 18BC until his death in 12BC. I am sure that Ingsoc will tell you even more. Meyer Reinhold's Marcus Agrippa will give you the full story on Agrippa's stay in the East and his friendship with Herod the Great.

Excellent, Calders - thanks a bunch! I am a lot clearer now. And I find I'm yet again hoist with my own petard, because I always insist on the Romans being studied in their own context and time - and yet find myself refusing to do that for the legions. Clearly, our understanding of the chain of command within the legions is not helped at all by comparison with the modern regiment. I lok forward to chatting more about this with you at the Wall - and I'm warning you, my son will have a lot of questions for you. And BTW - check your PMs.

Be nice for Big Phil to finish on a high before he comes to us, but I can't see it. However, Portugal would be my third choice to win, and I'd root for them if Italy and Germany were out.

Despite it not being the greatest quality football on show this tournament, this was one of the most enjoyable matches I've seen in a while - from a purely neutral point of view. The conditions in the first half were horrendous, with torrential rain waterlogging the pitch and seriously hampering the play of the ball and the safety of the players. However, the ground staff did a great job to get the pitch workable for the second half and Turkey ran out deserved winners. I felt sorry for the Swiss - they are now out of the competition and they are the co-hosts, but they probably didn't serve to progress on tonight's showing. As for what kind of a team Turkey are, Doc - no, they are not that great a team, but they do provide some entertainment. Quarter-finals would be the best they could hope for on paper, but they have imagination and creativity, even if they lack that final bit of quality. Put it this way - if they were to qualify in second place in their group they would no doubt face Germany, who would tear them a new a**hole, as the saying goes. But who knows.... these tournaments are full of surprises. Let's face it - in 2004 Greece won the thing! (That has to go down as one of the all time lows in football)

Oh, by all the gods - is this hamfisted lesson in Roman history still going on!! As Calders never answered my post - hey, Calders, I'm not having a go, because I can't blame you for giving up in this thread (I'm sure I'll get your answer at the Meet next month) - I shall have a nice cold vodka and coke with lots of ice and go and watch 22 men making love to a football. Sometimes, life is just too short.....

Hehe - now I've two things to say to you Cornelius: Why are you talking about Rugby when the rest of us are discussing football? and more importantly - you shouldn't be making any snide comments at all with that flag in your avatar. Les Bleus effort yesterday has been surpassed only by tonight's offering from Sweden and Greece in its uncompromising awfulness You are quite right there, Augusta. Petty England arent in it - Maybe the band could have played 'March of the Gladiators' when Rooney walks into the arena, with his chin jutting and knuckles scraping the ground. Does he not originate from a certain city in South-West Lancashire...? Well of course, NN - if England had beenin this competition we would have been treated to over-hyped pundits in the studio willing the deluded to believe that they 'could go all the way' and that Rooney, Owen and Crouchy are the best strikers in the tournament. For once we are getting some objective, unbiased views. And I really am rooting for Les Bleus to do better - I mean it. I do actually like France when they play at their best.

Very true Kosmo, Spain have everything required to win Euro 08, They've got two world class strikers in Villa and Torres, a skillful, creative midfield with Iniesta and Fabregas pulling the strings, and a solid defense with Puyol, Ramos and Cassilas between the sticks, They got a good mix of youth and experience through out the team. The only problem is that we always seem to say the same thing about Spain every tournament and they always seem to come up short, they just don't seem to rise to the big occasion the way teams like Germany and Italy do. So for me the jury's still out with the Spaniards, on paper they have the quality to win it but the big question is do they have the bottle?? I think the problem with Spain, GPM - and yes, they are very easy on the eye to watch - is that they come out too fast too soon. They treat us to these gorgeous displays from game one and by the quarters they've run out of steam. Despite years of experience in top tournaments, Spain still don't seem to have worked out that you need to pace yourself in a tournament and save your best till the latter stages. Until they learn to do that, I fear they will always be doomed to failure - which is a shame, because they play the effortless passing game with true style. What was lovely to see yesterday was Torres, who could so easily have been selfish, teaming up with Villa so brilliantly. Having said all this, the same could be true of Holland. Will they play as well as they did on Monday? One hopes so, as these tournaments are crying out for new blood, but I am going to make an Empress's proclamation here and now at this early stage in the proceedings: Neither Spain nor Holland will win this tournament. You can all remind me of this post on 29th June, and if one of these nations are champs I will hold my hands up. Looking forward to Portugal and the Czechs this afternoon.

I'm afraid you're about five years behind the times, Ram! Yes - now it is more like the circus, what with the interesting and varied 'victory celebrations' when a player scores a try. Hehe - now I've two things to say to you Cornelius: Why are you talking about Rugby when the rest of us are discussing football? and more importantly - you shouldn't be making any snide comments at all with that flag in your avatar. Les Bleus effort yesterday has been surpassed only by tonight's offering from Sweden and Greece in its uncompromising awfulness A lad on another forum tonight had it spot on - he called Sweden V Greece the 'World's First 7 Hour Match' with Ibrahimovic scoring a great goal in the 5th hour. And by the gods - it seemed like it. I actually felt sorry for the ball in tonight's game. Glad to see we're all joining in the banter. Keep it coming folks.

I'm afraid you're about five years behind the times, Ram!

You're not wrong there, GPM - to play in spurts is the nature of the Italian game. However, I did permit myself a little chuckle tonight, as the Dutch seemed to beat the italians at their own game - their second and third goal were a perfect example of old Italian catenaccio! But there are no hard feelings - seriously. It has been a while since I've watched a game and felt so honestly happy for the other team. Holland deserved it. Now, if only we could have got bloody Boularouz to play like that at Chelsea!

I'm really hitting the fiction at the moment and I'm in the middle of the final instalment of the Attila trilogy by William Napier. The first novel was brilliant, the second a bit of a 'filler', but this third one is pulling out all the stops so far. Napier manages to convey the sense of fear that the Eastern - and Western - Empires experienced at the threat of this monster of a man. The third book opens with the famous heroic last stand of the VII at Viminacium - and I was living that siege with them all. I'm thoroughly enjoying this - and the author is clever. During his first two books he had us loving Attila, now he is showing how power has gone to his head, and he's a bit of a bastard - not to put too fine a point on it. There are quite a few layers going on - proving, for me at least, who has been reading historical fiction since I was 10 (40 years), that Napier is one of those authors who has a bit more to say than the average run-of-the-mill popular novelist. As I am getting back into harness, I may well review this trilogy for the Forum. It has its flaws, but I've been quietly impressed.

A brilliant post from someone who knows his football. Well said, GPM - and you know I love the Azzurri more than I love life. The first half was what lost it for us. The midfield just did NOT compete. Reno - what the hell were you doing out there? Far too many lazy, loose passes from him and Andrea. No, hats off to the Dutch - they were absolutely fantastic and they are going to trounce France if they play like this. I took some comfort for my Azzurri - no one can say that they played badly in that second half - we just lacked that ball in the final third. Lumping balls up to Luca isn't gonna cut it unless he has some support. That's something that Roberto has to work out for the game on Friday. But they were almost there - just on the edge - and I think you'll agree, GPM, they contributed to a fantastic game. I can't write them off yet. Holland are going to get six points after France, and we should humble Romania and France (unless something drastic happens), so all is not lost. It's one of those games where you know you have seen two good sides and they deserve to go through. France v Romania was dire. How they hell can you play with TWO holding midfielders? One, yes - that's sensible - but TWO! And they call Italy negative - jeez! Yes, we missed Fabs in defence, and RVN's first goal was defo offside, but I'm a fair girl - their 2nd and 3rd goals were brilliant and they fully deserved their victory. There are times when you just have to sit back and applaud the opposition - tonight was one of those. Interesting to see what Silentiium made of it all. Paging Silentium

Well, boys and girls - only two hours to go before we kick off with Switzerland and the Czech Republic. I'm expecting some nice football from the Czechs, and of course they have the second best goalkeeper in the world Of course, the number one goalkeeper in the world will no doubt be captaining the Italian side! Can't wait now. Bring it all on.

Oh I remember that. We were driving around Lazio with a poster of the Korean squad on our rear window. It was magnificent. You were a very, very, very, very brave man, Mal. Still, I bet you had a fast car

Oh shame on you, Calders! Let your imagination flow. I've built many a Roman forum with my kids' ordinary lego sets when they were little I must admit though, it was only buildings. People were something of a problem. So on second thoughts, I'll join inthe protest. Lego Romans please, in tunics and removable/attachable plastic togas. Neil - awesome Theatre! Must admit, I stuck to square buildings! Alas, I can't produce any pictures though, so you will all have to take my word as an upstanding and honest citizeness, that I did create little wonders for the kids.

As soon as I read the opening post on this thread I immediately recalled those old maps where one would read 'Here be Dragons' - a term that has passed into folklore. Could these dog-heads have been marked to denote similar unexplored or wild areas on a map? Just a thought.

Hehe - Cheeky! Yes, it did have a whiff about it, but to be honest, I don't bother too much about all that because during 2004 Italy played rubbish, so it was only a matter of time before they got knocked out. Why 2002 hurts so much is that Italy actually played decent attacking football and had no fewer than five perfectly good goals disallowed for offside in three consecutive games. Now, OK - once is normal - twice, maybe unlucky - but FIVE??? But there was a lot going on in that tournament which has since been exposed. But anyway - good luck to the Swedes, Nagelfar. No grudges about that one at all.

Phew! Well, I have only the haziest grasp of the Roman Army. As Calders so eloquently put it in an earlier post on this thread, there is no shame in admitting to being wrong, or to acknowledging ignorance on a topic (a point RW would do well to remember). I am certainly not ashamed to admit that I know very little indeed about the finer points of the Roman Army. Heck, I wouldn't even aspire to novice status! Well, the generals wore nice red cloaks - that's about the summit of my knowledge, guys! But to return to the matter in hand - i.e. the start of the thread about terminology used in the piece cited by GO, I wonder if those early military historians were equating ranks such as NCO=Centurion for exactly the sort of ignorant fool I am. You see, I have this vague idea that Legion=Regiment and that a colonel would be in charge of it (I'd think of him as the Legatus). After that, we have brigadiers and generals and such like who would command combined regiments. (Calders, jump in at any point to correct me here). For instance, I have always equated a Centurion with a RSM - but as Caldrail has pointed out, this is somewhat fallacious, as the Centurion commanded more men than a Regimental Sergeant Major would. However, may I propose that it is the 'essence' of that rank that permeates our understanding here. Numbers and Roman chain of command aside, would you say that today's RSM - or, say, the RSM of the 40s/50s/60s - is an equivalent in authority - i.e. over a proportionately similar division of the regiment, to the centurion in a Roman legion? I note, Calders, that you said he was more equivalent to a Captain or Major, because of the numbers of men - i.e. 80 - but I wonder if the historian who wrote that piece was thinking more of his level of authority within the greater chain of command. You see, I sort of get it when we apply British terms, but if I am way off beam, please tell me. If I've obscured matters even further, please forgive me, but I do want to understand more about the legions from our experts. Please use idiot's language to instruct me - I will not be offended. But please don't let RW do it - I can't understand him ETA: I must just add something else. Although NCOs are non-coms and everything from a 2nd Lieutenant would be a commissioned officer, I am sure I am right in saying that not all commissioned officers (especially in war time) were commisisoned from civilian life. Surely it is possible to rise through the ranks to be a Captain? Or am I off beam again? Or was this very rare? And if so, did the same apply in the legions? Do we know if there was ever a case of a centurion eventually becoming a general?

Yes, GPM - Croatia are one of those horrible sides - like Bolton - that cause upsets and play some ugly stuff sometimes - although I concede, they have improved over the years. I would agree that they are a dark horse. But will someone please - in the name of all thats aesthetically holy! - give them a new strip? They must win hands down for the ugliest bloody strip in the world. Nice to hear an English footy fan has a soft spot for the Azzurri - they are usually reviled beyond all decency in the Press and by our so-called experts in the studio. 'Too defensive' - 'actors' - 'diving about all over the place'. So what do England do? Appoint an Italian manager. And when Don Fabio has England playing all defensive and perhaps winning a World Cup - wow - won't we see the hypocrisy abound. Actually, I've supported Italy in Internationals since the 1970 World Cup and I have to say it will be a joy to have a tournament without the hype from the English Press about the Three Lions. However, I am going to make a tally chart for how many times England are going to be mentioned on British TV in a tournament they're not even playing! It started already last week when Sky interviewed Liverpool's Kuyt. 'What do you think about there being no England in this tournament, Dirk?' By all the gods! Dirk had to be sweet about it, but he probably really wanted to say: 'I'm Dutch - do you think I give a toss?'

My chosen avatar for the duration of the Championships will show you that I too am one of the tifosi, Silentum. And, yes, bitterness still abounds about 2000 and that damned Golden Goal. However, it's not quite as bad as the bitterness of the 2002 Mondiale and South Korea! I will never, ever, forgive them, or that damned referee! I think that now Canna has been lost to injury, we have something to fight for, and I can see us winning this. Before Fabio's injury my money would have been on Germany, to be honest. Beh - speremo.... FORZA AZZURRI

I submit it's never as good nor as funny in film as it was to actually be there: Sergeant Kling to Private Darnell, a "boot" who always seemed to march with his mouth wide open: Sgt. Kling: What are you looking for Private Darr-nell? A peter? Pvt Darnell: Sir! No sir! Faustus I can only thank the gods that I have never seen this masterpiece!

Ah, well, Faustus - here we call them: Scallies, Scrotes, Chavs, or just plain Yobs. When Boris talks of English 'Hoodies'*, he does NOT mean kids who aren't headed for University, believe me! The term is not remotely related to the American 'Hoodlum' or 'Hood' - i.e. from 'neighbourhood'. In England the word has quite a different connotation: we're talking about kids who aren't even headed for the job market. Believe me, this is a real problem for us at the moment - a serious one. We have yob culture. One might almost say - and it's no exaggeration - that we have a sub-culture, or what the Victorians called 'a residuum'. Gangs terrorise decent kids on street corners. Girls attack people in the street and take photos of the attack on their mobile phones - that's the latest craze. Asking one of these youngsters to step aside while you pass may result in death. No - I'm not joking. Believe me, we don't know what the answer is, but it sure as heck isn't statistics or classical languages. * For our non-English cousins worldwide, the English word 'Hoody' refers to a kid who wears a hooded top, in a vain effort to look 'hard'. While some kids wear these tops in all innocence, the fashion has become synonymous with hostile groups who roam the streets terrorising others.

Yes, Doc, Boris is missing the point. As my post was meant to convey - perhaps teaching them basic English would be the first step. Living in an area surrounded by these youngsters, no matter what the efforts of the education system, you'd be banging your head against a brick wall. Trust me. I'm in England in a working class area - I know. Boris is living in dreamland. You have kids who can't even be bothered to attend school to learn the three Rs, let alone trying to get them to grips with conjugations and declensions in an inflected language. I'd be interested to see what our other English posters feel. Not idealism now - practicality. Now. if Boris had suggested that we start by educating their parents in basic parenting - well, who knows what we might discover.... But I have to admit - it's this sort of thing that has me in hoots about our Boris. He is almost as good value as Edwina Currie was, and that's saying something. And that's from me, who's a Tory! (Well, a very wet one)