The Augusta

Yep - it does we Brits good sometimes (when we get superior over our actors and dramas) to remember that we are responsible for producing the sad apology for humanity that is Jade Goody! Thankfully, I can hold my head up high and say that I do not watch this pile of excrement. However, she has managed to gt a foothold into other TV shows due to her 'fame' on Big Brother. This is the way to fame in the UK lately, folks. Forgive my bluntness but to gain a TV career now, one only has to throw ones ignorance into the nation's face, or failing that - shag David Beckham!

Give me a chance, Paul - I'm doing it...I'm doing it.... But she's not telling it to a scribe - far too old hat!

The whole Ben Hur Ferrari thing reminds me of an enormous myth of my own that I perpetuated throughout my childhood. When I first saw Ben Hur (probably about the age of 8 or so) I was convinced that during the chariot scene Stephen Boyd was wearing a watch. (I think Stephen Boyd played Messalla, but I'll not swear to it) I told people this for years! Eventually, I sat down to re-watch the movie with my ex and prepared to astound him when Stephen appeared in his Swiss gem. Well, there he was wearing his leather wristlets and nothing more - and I had been absolutely convinced. Just shows how ones vision can play tricks. No doubt this was how the Ferrari got started.

Ah! Thank you Pertinax - I wasn't sure.

More likely the Gemonian Stairs - where the bodies of criminals were thrown for the mob to abuse. I'm not sure when they came into existence, however. Anyone know?

We know there is no evidence whatsoever that Octavius ever took the name Octavianus upon his adoption by Caesar, as custom would dictate. Regardless, it became a popular method to differentiate between the two Caesars, so it is what it is, I suppose. Quite! Even I, PP, as nit-picking an old curmudgeon as you can find, agree that NOT to call him Octavian at this stage in history would be very pedantic. Again, I can only agree. The fact that there are only two more episodes after Philippi suggests that we are not going to get much further than 'the official death of the Republic on the plains of Philippi' angle. It would also make sense to finish it somewhere around there if there had been a third series planned and then pulled, which is what seems to have happened. They could perhaps throw Perusia and the risings of 41BC in, as an attempt to show how the combined forces of Antony, Lepidus and Sextus Pompey et. al. did NOT take the opporunity to rid Rome of Caesar's son. Perhaps the Treaty of Brundisium would be a decent enough place to end. All smiling faces and hidden mistrust of each other - that sort of thing. But there again, that would only make sense if there were to be a series 3.

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To all our US cousins who saw last night's...... I have just read a review in the New York Times. The review led me to understand that Simon Woods has already taken over as Octavian? Is this so? I'm sure my English brothers and sisters will forgive me for asking - after all it hardly counts as a spoiler. Any info will be glady received - even if in a PM.

Yes, thank you, Doc - it clears things up wonderfully. I suppose the confusion has not been helped by the fact that there were several 'Gauls' - Cisalpine, Traspadane, etc.

Although it may be slightly off-topic - does anyone know which is the right term: 'Gaulish' or 'Gallic'. I have seen both used in history to describe the peoples, language, customs etc. of Gaul.

Well found, Theilian. If this is true, it's great news - especially as the actor looks dead right for the role. Hell - he's even got a dimple in his chin! How's that for accuracy, Cato? (We were saying.... )

That's not fair. So far, this series has paid more attention to historical accuracy than most any previous original screenplay. I'd also add that the series--while paid for with American dollars--was not produced by Hollywood: the writers, consultants, cast, and crew are overwhelmingly British and Italian. Granted that there are some licenses taken, that's par for the course. Even on the claustrophobic sound sets of "I, Claudius" (which I loved btw), we were treated to a Caligula that was far more Elagabolous than the son of Germanicus. Cato - I should clarify: When I say 'Hollywood' Romans, I am using it as a generic term, rather than a purely American one. Would celluloid Romans be more in order? It's an expression we use over here for any sort of lavish, huge budget production.

Interesting, Decimus. Have you any idea, then, where Manda Scott the author got the name Breaca from for Boudica? I have always assumed it is her own interpretation, of course - but wondered if it had any basis in truth. (Scott gives it as a form of Briga, the goddess). I should add, of course, that as far as I have always understood it, the name Boudica meant 'bringer of victory' and was a title given to the Queen, rather than her given name at birth. Would be interested to hear what you think.

As I once famously said, I turn a blind eye to all his little affairs! Seriously - nice to see there will be a few other ladies. I take it we are making our own accommodation arrangements?

The caledonii and the maetae etc? why that is where Hadrian built a wall to separate Rome from barbary! And as Gaius will know - being a Black Adder fan - what Baldrick believed to be an orange bush moving towards the Romans like the Forest of Dunsinane, was, in fact, The Scots!

Talking of our Sulla - he would have to be interviewed on a major Chat Show on the occasion of his retirement, and he would walk down the glittery staircase to the tune of 'Luck be a Lady Tonight'. Gorgeous contribution up there, Virgil! Ah, now - signature tunes.... there'd be a thing. 'Holding out for a Hero' for our Scipio. Lots of Hollywood montage of him driving his 4 wheel drive Jeep towards New Carthage. I see Cato in the House of Commons, lobbying Tony Blair. True to his principles he would deliberately spit on the panders by appearing in a tattered old Pink Floyd T-shirt and faded Levi jeans. Come to think of it, we did have a sort of Cato over the Iraq business: Robin Cook resigned his cabinet post because he refused to believe in the WMDs and challenged the pretext for the war. He stuck to his principles and made a flamboyant gesture that elevated him in most peoples' opinion. Regardless of modern politics, I see Cato doing just the same sort of thing. Poor Julia and Clodia would have had their faces and exploits plastered all over the tabloids: 'Emperor's daughter in six-way romp - no comment from the Palatine'; 'Emperor said to be 'heartbroken' over horny daughter's exploits'. 'Julia's men: Was there a plot to oust the Emperor?' 'Exclusive: Clodia speaks out over rumours of incest.' The girls provide even more fun!

I've been having a bit of a rethink about this second series of Rome and the absence of our dear old Marcus Agrippa. Unforgivable as it is, I was wondering whether we are all taking it for granted that the series will go all the way to Actium? I can remember someone discussing earlier in this thread - or perhaps its huge parent - that Episode 8 of the series was concerned with Philippi, and there were remarks about dragging the events of 2 years out into 8 episodes. Now, as the series is only 10 episodes long, perhaps events do not even proceed down to the final Sicilian War of 36BC? If the series is to end just after Philippi - say with Antony's dalliance in the East being dragged out - there is probably some justification for leaving Agrippa out. As I have said before in other threads, he was not Octavian's leading general until the downfall of Salvidienus in 40BC, and although we all know that he had been Octavian's friend from childhood/early adolescence (and should be already in the series in any case), he did not really have his huge say in events until the Sicilian victory of 36BC. Could it possibly be that we are doing HBO an injustice? The other side of this coin, however, is why Maecenas has been introduced without Agrippa. The three were a little private Triumvirate of their own, after all. I have the strangest feeling that our dear old Maecenas, with his dandified air and adornments, plus his devotion to his actors and poets, is perhaps being introduced for some slightly salacious purpose. I do hope I'm wrong - but the actor is Alex Wyndham who is very easy on the eye to say the least! Does anyone have any news on the synopses for the various episodes. I can't get much up on various sites to date.

I said exactly the same thing at the time, Skarr - although not so eleoquently. As I remember, my comment ran along the lines of 'It was paint they smeared on the general's cheeks, you [snipped for underage people] idiots!' Well, paint, powder, dye - depending on which sources you read. I don't think we need argue here, Skarr - we are surely all of one mind that it was NOT blood! I also took issue with a public garrotting (sp?) of Vercingetorix. But of course, HBO are not interested in historical facts and accuracy - they wish to provide spectacle. Hence, nasty bloodthirsty Romans smearing sacrificial blood all over Caesar (they no doubt thought they were being clever, using the symbolism), and then killing a gallant loser in front of a jeering mob. It's all very Hollywood Romans. Also: Why didn't we have the breaking of the chariot axel? Wasn't that during the Gallic triumph? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the axel broke and he had to climb the Capitol on hands and knees. I'm sure Michael Grant reminded me of this some years ago Having been killed in the Parthian expedition years before the events of the series even began, that's perfectly understandable. To be fair, Cato, Crassus' death only took place one year before the start of the Series - it begins in 52BC. But havig said that, perhaps so recent a disaster as Carrhae and the death of another main player in the late Republic could have merited some mention.

Nice to see all our Northerners rallying here. Join forces, Brigantes and Cornovii - for honour! On a more serious (but off-topic) note, I actually lived and worked in London for two years in the early 80s. There were good parts, obviously, but I was so happy to get back 'home'. And now - whenever I go back down there (and I travel there regularly), the thought of living in the capital again fills me with dread. If Dr. Johnson wants to tell me I'm tired of life, so be it - give me the North any day. I wonder if the Romans' perceptions of the uncivilised northerners changed when Cartimandua handed over Caratacus?

Forgive me, Paul - I have been busy with other things over the last couple of weeks and have only just seen this post! I was aware of Holland's Augustus, but - for better or worse - I gave up on buying new 'Augustuses' (I suppose it should be Augusti) a few years ago, as I cannot find anything new in them that hasn't already been covered by the staples. The theory that he was lucky rather than skilful is not a new one either, and while it is not one I take intense issue with (for arguments can be found to support it), I do believe he had a mixture of luck and good management. But we can leave that to another thread. Well, as for Livia - you'll get no argument from me that she has been given an undeserved reputation, and yes, she had quite an adventurous life whilst married to her first husband, ironically fleeing from the man she was to marry later. She also had a near escape at Naples and the pair had to make a quick getaway from Perugia. My opinion of her first husband is not a kind one. He had as much political nous as a cockroach, but in his defence he did also have some bad luck himself. Other Patricians of the times also kept shifting their loyalties - it just seemed that whenever Nero did it he ended up choosing the losing side. But the experience of her first marriage and the danger her husband constantly found himself in after his proscription in 41BC must have hardened her outlook and sharpened her own political acumen. Although Suetonius quotes Caligula's 'Ulysses in petticoats' as a condemnation of his great-grandmother, I should think it's one of the most accurate descriptions of her that have come down to us. After all, Caligula had grown up in great-grandmama's house, and he should have known her if anyone did. I think the quote should be her epitaph. Ulysses/Odysseus was clever, cunning and shrewd, but moved by noble ideals,and he must have been a famous literary/mythical figure to educated Romans of the age. Homer's epic certainly does not paint the hero in a bad light, does it? Caligula, no doubt, had the Virgilian model in mind though - Ulysses in the Aeneid is not a pleasant man. However, by the time Caligula was living with great-grandma she would be extremely old and probably embittered by Tiberius's reluctance to award her due status and honours. I am sure she was never a lady to be crossed with impunity! She had been hewn out of the stone of the dying Republic and as a member of one of its oldest and noblest houses, she no doubt worked to ensure the ascendancy of that house within the new monarchy. In this she was as staunch an old Republican as any of them. As Ronald Syme says of her 'she deserved to succeed'. I do believe she was the last of a line, however, rather than the forerunner of the Agrippina/Messalina set. Livia's family blood was what mattered most to her - in that I am convinced. She believed that the old houses should rule the empire, and this was her motivation. The Agrippinas and Messalinas of the world just wanted self-glory and power for themselves, and I think this is an important difference. Livia was content to work within the framework of a male world, which is also something she shared with the Republican matrons rather than the harridans of the Imperial era.

I think it was his ancestry that was Equestrian. His father had been governor of Macedonia after all (59BC), although as an ex-praetor rather than an ex-consul, of course. Nevertheless, the family were still Patrician. Hadn't Caesar raised them to that level at some stage? Octavian was also enrolled into the College of Pontiffs as his first position in public life, by Caesar himself. I was under the impression that one had to be Patrician to serve the priesthood, but I can't absolutely swear to it. Suetonius also tells us that Augustus was born on the Palatine. If this is so then I suppose the luxury of the house makes sense.

Yes, agreed, and this is not my argument, Cato. It seems my point is missing its mark here. Nephele has understood exactly what I meant when she compared Polly's Atia to Jennifer Saunders' Edina. There are ways to deliver the lines and play the character that would have made her a vicious manipulator but without making her sound like some spoilt bitch from West London in the 20th century. I suppose I should have made a distinction between 'portrayal' and 'performance'. But it may not be Polly's fault entirely. I have heard it said by many of our UK actresses who work on TV in the US that they receive very little direction compared to that received over here. (This is not the same for films, of course.) It may well be that she was left to get on with her own interpretation. But let's have done with all this.... I think we're all more upset that poor old Marcus, yet again, has not been given his due.

I was always amused by the little footnote in Caesar's 'Conquest of Gaul' where he states that the most civilised of the Britons live in Kent! To a rough Northerner like me, we would say that perceptions haven't really changed much in 2000 years!