The Augusta

Indeed, Pertinax - thank you for clarifying further. 'Caesar' was actually a cognomen and not a nomen.

We tend to look at 'Caesar' from the 21st century (and earlier historians of course) as being the title of the Emperors, but in fact this is a more modern convention, as is referring to Imperator Caesar Divi Filius as 'Octavian' to avoid confusion, or the Emperor Gaius as 'Caligula' (although why that has stuck I will never know). Caesar was nothing more than a surname in the late Republic/early Principate. In fact, Augustus' position was not 'Emperor' but 'Princeps'. 'Imperator' - from which we get 'Emperor' was a military title. So, in answer to your question, Gaius, no - I do not think a 'sequence' of Caesars is helpful. We do know that later on in the Empire the heir apparent/presumptive whatever was known as 'Caesar' but this came much later. As far as Augustus and the Julio-Claudians were concerned, Caesar was merely the family name. If we were going to be really pedantic about it, the 'Caesars' ended with Nero.

Cato - can you remember where in the sources it was mentioned that Antony's treatment of Brutus' corpse was in emulation of Alexander's treatment of Darius III? It was something that stirred in my memory when reading your post, but I had a quick dip into the usual suspects and could not find the reference. If Antony did consciously emulate Alexander's action with Darius, I suppose it would add to the view of his hypocritical motives. However, even though I am not Antony's biggest supporter, on a purely personal level, I tend to believe that he did treat the corpse with reverence out of genuine respect.

And I have settled into my new life very well - thanks to your warm welcome, Don Tomasso. Between us we can rule the world. :wub:

Thanks for the link, Nephele. However, as Lendering has not cited his sources, I am still not convinced that Agrippa was actually born into a family of Equestrian rank. Nor was I impressed with Lendering's musings on Agrippa's veiled figure on the Ara Pacis! He was shown veiled 'because he was dead'?! Statesman were shown veiled to indicate a priesthood - surely! We know from our sources that Agrippa was 'enrolled' into a priesthood. Augustus himself on the Ara Pacis is shown veiled, as is Aeneas for the sacrifice. This shows the connection with the priesthood and religion of Rome - not the fact that 'Agrippa was dead' before the dedication of the Ara Pacis. Well - it may be a new viewpoint, but Ihave never heard of it before.

Ah, Maladict - you pre-empted me. As soon as I read Gaius' post I thought 'Calabria? No - he means Puglia - the heel not the toe!' Don't they have sred roofs made up of very small tiles - or am I thinking of something else?

In Meyer Reinhold's 'Marcus Agrippa', the author makes a good case for Agrippa's forebears being of Illyrian descent. His argument is based on various epigraphical evidence from that province and later archaeological discoveries of inscriptions bearing the Vipsanian nomen. Whilst we cannot claim that Reinhold's thesis is sounder than any other, it is, in my view, more persuasive than the slave theory. Therefore, we might say that Agrippa's grandfather was not a Roman citizen - which is not the same as being a slave. As to the Equestrian rank - again Reinhold's thesis is that this was conferred on Agrippa and Salvidienus by Octavian early on in 44BC or 43BC - and as I cannot find an ancient source that states that Lucius Vipsanius (Marcus' father) was equestrian, I am persuaded to discount such a rumour. The rumour of Octavian himself being descended from slaves was, I am fully convinced, part of Antony's propaganda when the two had quarrelled openly.

Ah - so now I know who killed my Inadverto! May worms crawl through your every orifice, Porcofacio! :2guns:

Rather like Lizzy Bennet, who dated her love for Darcy to the time that she saw his beautiful grounds at Pemberley, I now wish to dedicate my life to your pleasure, Gaius. That is a beautiful house, full of character.

Most esteemed one, Having dipped into your blog and been highly gratified by the sojourn, I will return soon to post suitable comments. For the moment, however, I comply with your order to apply for the post of Lady Farrow. The duties of this lady, however, have not been clearly defined. Therefore, I am willing to write my own job description: As the name 'Farrow' conjures up something of a porcine picture, I would prefer to think of her as Lady Lupa, giving all manner of nurturing comforts to tiny foundlings and founders. This being the case, during the absence of the most beloved Domina Claudia, I would be willing to offer such services as dusting, vacuuming, bed-making and a Lasagne to die for. On arrival at your domus, you would relieve me of two crates of the best malt whisky (without an 'e' in it), to be consumed in a suitable tumbler, without ice or any other such transatlantic sacrilege. In return you would allow me to imbibe large quantities of vodka, after the consumption of which, I would admire you even more than I do when sober. This could lead to spontaneous entertainment involving a variety of postures, nostalgic meanderings, a fairly accurate impression of Shirley Bassey singing 'Goldfinger', and a debate with you as to who has been the Yankees best closing pitcher for years! This may then be followed by who has been the best captain of the Azzurri for years! Should we still be alive and talking to each other after this, inhibitions may be thoroughly shed in a mutual celebration of our virtual passion. However.... should you dare to enter the kitchen while I am preparing the said Lasagne, you may find that certain items become airborne, and you may well need to look at me with the aid of a mirror. And I must finally warn you, that if a proposal of marriage follows your consumption of my Lasagne - or Vitello al Cartoccio, for that matter - I will invoke the presence of Domina Claudia, complete with an airborne kitchen implement to remind you of your holy vows. I humbly submit this application for your consideration. Donna Sophia

Gents - I have been meaning to ask you all for some time whether you would recommend this series of games from the beginning? I have always been tempted to buy it - and my son has been pestering for it too, but I'm not sure that my present spec is high enough for its graphics. As a gamer, I am more a Tomb Raider and Prince of Persia than an out-and-out war player - but I would still like to give it a go, if you give it your recommendation.

Gaius - PLease would you rephrase that for the English on the board!

Coming from one who is usually so scrupulous about source information, Cato, that remark takes me by surprise! 100% love? Not even 0.1% doubt? I have the sneakiest suspicion that our Cato is an old romantic at heart.

Didn't Augustus nominate two of his daughter's(?) children 'Caesars' and had Tiberius adopt them? You mean Gaius and Lucius. Augustus himself adopted Gaius and Lucius - and yes, they were henceforth given the 'surname' Caesar, as attested by many extant inscriptions etc. Tiberius was adopted with Postumus in 4AD and in his turn was forced to adopt Germanicus.

Quite. The 'Plebs' (and lets not forget, there were rich Plebs too) may have been cavorting all over the place, but their activities would not necessarily have been written about by historians who only wished to document the doings of the influential. Also - does an 'orgy' have to involve sex? My definition of the word is that it constitutes excess - not necessarily or exclusively sexual. Would Octavian's famous 'Banquet of the Twelve' as cited by Suetonius count as an orgy?

Well, what can I say? These crayola people really know their stuff! Thank you, Nephele. I will let Gaius comment on his own.....

Yes, I know Hal was quite something in his younger days, Paul - I was just being my usual facetious self I didn't see the Ray Winstone version (which I'm sorry about because I'm a fan of Helena) but I did see The Other Boleyn Girl a couple of years ago, which took great liberties with history, and had Mary and Anne talking to the camera as though making a video diary! Didn't like that at all - despite the very decent acting abilities of the cast.

As its Showtime - creators of 'Queer as Folk' and 'The L Word' - I expect the entire cast to be gorgeous. Even Anne of Cleves will have some redeeming qualities. The storylines won't matter, as long as everyone looks right. Expect Henry VIII to have slimmed down remarkably for this, folks! BTW Ursus - the link wouldn't load for me.

:wub: You'll learn that from Donna Sophia herself. I am overwhelmed to be considered worthy of this elite group. And as Sophia Loren is still one of the most beautiful women on the planet (by even our MPC's standards and those of his namesake, I should think ) I am honoured to take her name. Are there any secret rituals involved, Don Tomasso?

Me, please, Nephele: skoegsliat

What is the evidence for historical change in what is considered healthy? What is the evidence for historical change in what is considered sexy? Good heavens - what have I started? I take a couple of days' break and come back to an academic debate. Cato, I suppose what I was getting at, and I think AD picked up on it, is perhaps 'what a certain section of society perceived as beauty'. Now, for that, we can surely take Rubens' paintings as evidence. In our ancient sources regarding Cleopatra, for instance, it was stated that she was 'beautiful' - therefore even if this was only the authors' views, it was definitely a view, and could we not therefore take this as evidence? After all we were discussing the perception of Cleopatra's beauty. I was trying to say that in the first century BC, society may have classed her as beautiful, just as society in Rubens' day (or a section of it, if you prefer) may have classed his voluptuous ladies as beautiful. Is this clearer - or have I made it worse? And I think we can draw some conclusion from what we see in art through the ages. Art was not produced in a vacuum - it was often produced to reflect popular taste, or in some cases, more high-brow taste - but it nevertheless was to reflect a subjective viewpoint. Would you agree?

The aedileship was also a way to gain popularity, as it was concerned with public affairs etc. This was never more apparent than when Marcus Agrippa held his aedileship in 33BC, four years after holding the Consulship! In the normal course of events - under the Republic - the aedileship was a lower magistracy, coming somewhere between the quaestorship and praetorship and it was certainly unheard of for an ex-consul to become an aedile. But Octavian and Agrippa used this popular office to put the wheels in motion for the great public building programme and other improvements in utilities - such as the overhaul of the Cloaca Maxima, in an effort to gain popularity.

Yes, hear, hear - without going into a great deep discussion about Hitler... And let's not overlook the fact that he was actually voted into office! I have always said that the man had great charisma - whether this was used for good or evil is immaterial from the point of view of his magnetism. My eldest sister's old headmistress actually attended one of his rallies when she was a young student visiting Germany in the 30s. She asked the person next to her to 'pull down her arm' if she started to make a Nazi salute. That was how powerful he was as a speaker. Hitler and the whole Third Reich thing is a fascinating subject and it makes us focus on an unpleasant truth about ourselves. His era remains within living memory and is therefore still cursed and held to be evil. But I wonder how he will be perceived 2,000 years from now when emotions and memories are dead and buried. Or to put it another way, are we prepared to view history more objectively the further removed in time it is? Had he won the war, would we have a different perception? Of course, we would like to think that we would not, but I remain somewhat dubious about this. Just look how we are divided today about Julius Caesar or Augustus. Will someone, in a few centuries' time calmly examine the sources from the Second World War and come up with more objective theories about the winners and losers?

Well I was doing OK until it went funny! I know damn well where Sardinia is - but when I clicked on it, it told me I was wrong at first and then kept freezing. In any case, I went on the Easy mode to start with and got 43 out of 45. I'm fine with BC geography. It's modern stuff I'm useless with. I can tell you where Parthia was, but equate it to a modern part of the world and I'm hopeless!

Sorry, Cato, I have to disagree here. Rubens was a commissioned artist and many of his works are indeed reflecting the tastes of a group. Many artists in his position didn't just paint whatever took their fancy; he received commissions from the Spanish court - among others to paint some of his more voluptuous offerings (Garden of Love etc). Other baroque artists adhered to this robust feminine form too, so I think I can safely say that it was within the taste of at least the high brow art lovers of that generation.