The Augusta

Thanks for the link, Ilian. I have Penguin editions of his letters to Atticus, Brutus and the second volume which Penguin entitled 'To his Friends' as well as the old Penguin Classic editions of many of his speeches. I think Cicero's letters are one of the most crucial sources for the period. Precisely because they were NOT intended for publication, they give us invaluable insights into the workings of the man's mind - and indeed the minds of his friends, unencumbered by the flowing rhetoric used for the political speeches. And there are scraps of things that cannot be found anywhere else. I would not be without them.

Felicitations, PP - may you live! Have a great day and an even greater hangover tomorrow. :stretcher:

[quote name='Julia C

Sligo Katie checking in Nephele! (I love that name) I have some Irish ancestry too - although my McKeowns were pesky Presbyterians from the north. I can still down a few pints of Guinness and will be happy to join in the party. My great-grandparents married on St. Pat's. :beer:

Hope it's a good one, Viggen! :beer: :beer: :beer: :king:

Hehe - that reminds me of that 'Jesus is coming! Look busy!' slogan on T-shirts. I agree (even if I wasn't an atheist) that the whole thing is a publicity stunt. And if and when it airs over here in Old Blighty, I think I might search the channels for a programme on particle physics to watch instead! (With apologies to particle physicists everywhere - I mean to cast no aspersions on your noble profession.)

Another one here in agreement! And although we should not romanticise too much, Alexander pre-dated the Roman generals to whom soldiers were personally loyal, by almost three hundred years. His men followed him everywhere, only having second thoughts in India. And if Livy is speculating about the period after the Persian conquest, Alex would have not only brought his Thessalian and Companian cavalry units - he'd have brought his very large Oriental mob as well!

This is a good point - but I think by that time, he had quite simply 'had enough'. I also think we do need to bear in mind that Tiberius was not exactly Augustus' first choice as successor - he was at least the 5th - even if we don't count Marcellus as a serious candidate in Augustus' mind at the time. And for him to listen in the Senate to the opening words of Augustus' will, where he bemoaned fate for robbing him of Gaius and Lucius, and offered Tiberius as the only option left - well, this would hardly fill the man with confidence in himself. You see, I am not so sure that Tiberius was actually born with his dreary personality; Augustus is not blameless in all this. But I also realise that I always judge Tiberius with a modern eye - which is most unscholarly and unhistorical (if there is such a word). I am quick to censure others for doing this with other historical persons It is just that, to me, Tiberius' personality seems to thrum with a very modern resonance. I know that Ursus, for one, has no patience with him, as he cannot understand why a member of the ruling class was reluctant to take on the mantle of government - and Ursus indeed has a good point, and is seeing Tiberius within the context of his own times. But I always think this a harsh judgment on a man who was introspective by nature - sympathy that would NOT have been extended to him in Roman times, to be sure. He is a real enigma and a very complex man, but all the more fascinating because of it.

Lovely stuff, Beloved. But what is this obsession with Poe? I require a parody of 'Usher' or 'Rue Morgue' within the week, done in your own inimitable style.

Ah - the finer points of US politics? I am afraid I am not an initiate and require a translation, O great esteemed One!

'Ah!' - quoth She - and seeks to know 'Why doth this sound as though it's Poe?' Edgar Allen eat your little fat heart out! The God-Consul has surpassed you! :wub: :wub: :wub: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

Ah - that would explain why none of the UK members understand a word!

LEGATIO for me, Nephele! I'm quite pleased with that.

Doc - I always thought that was a Viking practice? Called 'Drawing and Quartering'. You Brits had it as one of your pass times. Gaius - this is not what we Brits know as 'drawing and quartering'. Hanging, drawing and quartering (a barbaric thing that one of my own ancestors suffered - gods rest him) was being half-hanged by slow strangulation, then cut down while still alive, disembowelled, castrated and finally beheaded. The torso was then cut into four. However, 'drawing and quartering' seems to make sense for the above punishment too, so I am not sure what the precise etymology is here. Perhaps 'drawing and quartering' was originally what you say, and later on became what went on after a hanging. Incidentally, there was a provision among the condemned - they could pay the executioner a certain amount on the gallows, and he should have then made sure they were actually dead before beginning the disembowelling. Whether or not the executioners stuck to the bargain or not we'll never know, I suppose.

I second that, Cicero. But I have always wanted a really good 'disaster' movie about Pompeii for years. Hopefully, with today's massive budgets, we might get one. Fingers crossed.

Unfortunately, Septimus, for me at least, barge poles spring to mind! I have read some poor reviews too, including one on Amazon UK where a reader actually says that her writing style reminds him of Dan Brown (although the reader, strangely, meant that as a compliment). I have seen the book in the supermarket and had a quick leaf through, but was not tempted to buy. If you do get it, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Thank you, Septimus - for reminding us of the most horrific death suffered by an English king! Actually, I've often wondered whether he was really killed that way, or whether it was just a tale put about by his enemies? But it's one of those things that has passed into accepted tradition. BTW: I once saw Marlowe's Edward II at a theatre in Manchester in which that scene was done, erm - so well - that I had to leave the auditorium to get some air! I was expecting my first baby at the time, too - which didn't help! It's interesting to note that the actual stage direction in the play simply says: 'The king is murdered'.

Glad you raised this, Pan. I have been leafing through his work in several bookstores recently, but found that the writing did not grab me. Immediately let me say that this is no doubt due to translation problems, and for this reason, it may well be better to read him in the original Italian - if possible. But I am interested in his subject matter and do intend to make an effort at some stage in the not too distant future. Have you read him? Could you recommend?

I have (but have not yet read) Renault's The King Must Die. Any particular suggestions? BTW, thanks for the recommendations and keep them coming! If you can bear with the panegyric, her 'Alexandriad' (Fire from Heaven, The Persian Boy and Funeral Games) is well worth a try, and strangely enough it might be best to start with the last volume, Funeral Games , which gives a vivid account of the competition between the various generals and satraps to control the Alexandrian empire after the king's death. Both the Theseus volumes (King must Die and Bull from the Sea) are great achievements of historical fiction: Renault turns myth and legend into a believable history, which is no mean feat! The first of her Greek novels, however, was The Last of the Wine which deals with the Peloponnesian War and the circle of philosophers at Athens. Socrates is drawn with an exquisite brush. And for anyone of a theatrical bent, The Mask of Apollo gives us an in depth study of what it must have been like to be a travelling actor in the 4th century BC. This only leaves The Praise Singer, the story of Simeonides set at the time of the Pisistratids - and is perhaps her least successful, IMHO. I have always regretted the fact that she did not write a Roman novel. BTW: I am glad you enjoyed Imperium, Cato. How Harris translated Cicero's natural wit to the page had me chuckling aloud. A great read.

During ancient times, the Indians ordered people to be executed by being trampled on by elephants. Not nice at all! Alexander's general Perdikkas employed this punishment against the mutineers led by Meleager after Alexander's death. (Quintus Curtius) And does anyone remember the punishment of being tied to two trees which were bent to the ground, then allowed to spring upwards again, thus tearing the body in two? I know I've read that somewhere! I agree that the old hanging by slow strangulation was vile, as was garrotting (sp?), and I once read an account by a friend of the poet John Keats (Joseph Severn, the artist) who wtinessed a public execution in Italy in the 19th century of a young boy who had his head clubbed until he died. And wasn't Mark Smeaton, the alleged lover of Queen Anne Boleyn, said to have had a knotted rope placed around his eyes and slowly tightened until his eyes popped? Phew - as old Rabbie once said: 'Man's inhumanity to man/Makes countless thousands mourn'.

On this same subject - I am just beginning my in-depth study of ancient Iran - something I've been promising myself for years! In this regard, I am wondering if anyone who has so far contributed here has read Olmstead's 'History of the Persian Empire'? I have only read up to Cyrus' conquest of Babylon so far, but am amazed at the flow of the work from a historian writing in the 1930/40s! Considering how we have been discussing historians on other threads (and I think Decimus Caesar mentioned how the older historians' work tends to flow better than a modern) I find that I am quite seduced by Olmstead's writing. The book has more in common with Holland's 'Persian Fire' in style - recreating the ancient Iranian world from its beginnings with mythical stories of creation etc., and presenting Cyrus' rise as a linear narrative, without getting too bogged down in academic arguments. Although some of Olmstead's interpretations have now been superseded in the light of more recent archaeological evidence etc., he still seems to be considered a fore-runner in ancient Iranian scholarship, and I am enjoying his book very much. Anyone else read this? My other reading matter for the period at the moment is Wiesehofer's 'Ancient Persia', which goes beyond the timescale of Olmstead, in that it deals with Iran from the ancient Persian empire, right through to the Arab conquest of the 7th century AD. This work is not, however, a 'history' as such. It tends to deal more with the evidence uncovered in more recent times, and examines relationships between the king and his people throughout each of the dynasties: Achaemenid, Seleucid, Arsacid and Sasanian. So, it has a narrower scope, but is still worth a read. One of my regrets in history, is that during the time of the Parthian empire, when Iran came more into contact with Rome than at any other time, there are less sources from the Parthian side. This is a pity, as from what I have read so far, the Parthian period seems to have been the most organised in terms of administration and trade. Any views?

Thanks for the Greek shout, PP - for I still have not read any historical novel set in any period or location that is better than a story produced by the genius who was Mary Renault - despite her love affair with Alexander that allows him few flaws. Her recreation of the ancient world is done with such detail that the reader is totally submerged in the times. Manda Scott's Boudica series is also well produced and vivid, although one can get a bit bogged down with the tedium of her 'dreaming' after three volumes! But I found that I read these books less for the Norfolk slut than for her half-brother Ban, who went off to join the Romans - like any sensible Brit would do! I will say one thing for Scott - she painted one of the best portraits of Gaius (Caligula) that I have ever read. Not a madman, but a megalomaniac who drained a person's soul with his eyes. It was a chilling portrait that struck fear in the reader. He had a quiet menace about him that was under control, and all the more menacing because of it. Of the main Roman ones, like others, I loved I, Claudius and Claudius, the God, even though Graves took gross liberties. The fact remains, the man is a classical author and it shows in the effortless flow of his prose. Compare it, for instance, with the horrendously pompous Last Days of Pompeii by Bulwer Lytton! Harris is becoming a favourite. Although he does not actually recreate the Roman world in such detail as Renault and Scott recreate their worlds, his pace is tremendous. I could not put Pompeii or Imperium down, and with the latter, in particular, I, as a previous Cicero enemy, found that I actually liked the old sod after reading this! Harris provides wonderful characterisation. I can't wait for the next two in this trilogy.

Yep. And you can start by removing that offensive photograph from your profile page! Triumvirs, where are you? Is this what you are moaning about? OFFENSIVE IMAGE REMOVED BY THE AUGUSTA If you ask me nicely I'll send it to you then you too can have a fantastic profile picture like me! That's the one, GPM. But please - next March, please let me know what life is like in League 2. Didn't you all realise that we'd sent in Ken Bates as a hit man?

Gifts of gold, silver and bronze are being shipped to you - together with large amounts of very expensive incense for your Domina to burn before your image. I trust she will adhere to ritual and purify herself before performing her rites of adoration.

Ah, Doc - you should know by now that humility is not one of his virtues Nor should it be, I hasten to add. Gaius is a god. This is no arbitrary declaration or blind flattery. I sacrificed last night and inspected the entrails. The liver shone with a golden light. Proof, if it were needed, of his divine status. As for his contributions to the Forum - we must all remember to receive these with proper respect. I am practising the prostration of the Persians as we speak, so that I may more fittingly receive his pronouncements in the future. Those for whom prostrating themselves before His Pulchitrude would be too slavish, however, a deep bow and tugging of the forelock would be sufficient, methinks. He is not a tyrant, after all. Congratulations, Dive, on your anniversary. :wub: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: