The Augusta

Even so, Ursus - I am in agreement with our new Magistra and Nephele that Northern Neil should be given some recognition for his expertise in architectural reconstruction. I mean - could any of us do what he does with those gorgeous models? As for yourself - if you are not our pater patriae I don't know who is!

I agree, Ingsoc. I do think that part of the reason for Agrippa's modesty was his humble origin (although not all). However, it does offer one heck of a contrast to men of humble origins in the later principate, who obviously did not share Agrippa's scruples.

I just have one final comment on 'Gladiator'. This is about the score. I don't know whether there are any Wagner fans/experts on the Forum, but the entrance of Commodus into Rome was filmed to background music that was a pure rip-off of the opening of Das Rheingold - especially the opening E flat motif which symbolises the river all through the Ring Cycle. It was glaringly obvious to me - and I wonder if it was a definite bit of plagiarism on behalf of the composers (Zimmer/Gerrard)? Anyone else pick up on this? If you know the story of Wagner's Ring Cycle, the music placed at this point was extremely fitting.

A very fitting new title for you, Magistra! And a decree has been passed allowing you to wear your diadem whenever you enter the Forum. I will drop a line to one or two provincial governors to see if we can erect a little temple or two to your greatness. Perhaps Nephele can suggest a suitable divine name under which we can worship you at these shrines.

I think you and I will get on, Metro99! I have read the Scott series and couldn't wait to get to the parts that deal with her half-brother who goes off to join the auxiliary cavalry. Hehe - and in the final novel - the history is well-known, so there's no spoiiler alert here - the final battle had me shouting for joy 'The Romans are winning! The Romans are winning!' And I'm English... I should be ashamed of myself - but I'm not!

Yes - welcome, Sonic. I hope you enjoy your time here. And indeed you will find that your other projects get interrupted, as I know to my cost. I blame the members - they make this Forum so addictive. I look forward to reading your posts. And a warm welcome to Civis too. We need more Greeks.... if you know what I mean. It's reminded me that I must visit the Greek folders more often myself.

It is much better. Just be prepared to scoff at some of the 'Hollywoodization' of history and you should be entertained. Despite the twisted history I think Joaquin Phoenix is brilliantly creepy. Well - knock me down with a feather! I really enjoyed that! I've just finished watching with my son and I actually had a little weep at the end there.... Somehow, purely because the history was so messed up in this film, all disbelief was suspended so that just the story and the entertainment came through. I think that's why I enjoyed it so much. I even wanted Maximus to kill Commodus in the arena. I'm not the biggest Russell Crowe fan in the world, but I had to take my hat off to him in this. I also liked Connie Nielson's performance very much. Nicely understated. I take it she was a sort of merging with Marcia? As for old Leaf - or whatever it is he's calling himself these days - I think he got better as the film went on, as though he grew into his role. As you say, PP, he was brilliantly creepy. Yes - all in all - an enjoyable couple of hours. I'll certainly watch it again. I only had one little giggle - and that was with poor Richard Harris. I couldn't help thinking that Wart had turned into Merlin with a bit of Dumbledore thrown in. He wasn't my idea of a Marcus Aurelius, but even so, this didn't detract from my enjoyment.

As a female I would have to be a notorious camp follower. However, in the early to mid-Republic there were few really interesting men!

Don't anyone dare laugh - after 7 years I am finally taking the plunge to buy this movie today. I have a quiet night in tonight and am now curious enough to watch it. Hehe - I shall add my own little thoughts later. I'm telling myself that it can be no worse than 'Troy' or 'Alexander', and as it can now be picked up for

Interesting point. But when did 'morals', as we perceive them, kick in? Did these very primitive societies lay down rules for the protection of the family, say - and was that based on primeval notions of territory and such like? In societies before there was organised religion or philosophy, what form would these 'morals' take? I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on this. As for the phalluses - didn't they always symbolise fertility? Or did they have other associations?

Yes - let me add my public congrats to you, Doc. I'm sure the revisions are just for form's sake - doesn't everyone go through that? This calls for immediate action in the Imaginary Party... We have a celebrity among us! Once again, well done. And you'll always be 'our' Doc, and much loved and appreciated in our little community here. Thanks for all you do on the Forum.

Have a great day, Ursus.

Thanks for this link, Virgil. Fascinating stuff. It certainly shows how prodigal the Romans could be in their praise of members of the Imperial family. Interesting stuff too about sacrificing to the 'manes of Gaius and Lucius Caesar'. And does this not prove the point that the Senate had become, by this time, a fawning shadow of its former self?

Welcome to UNRV, Natasha. I can see that you will compliment our Nephele very well. You will now be able to assist her in adorning us all. Nephele always provides garlands and fabrics for any virtual celebrations we have here, and now we have our very own jeweller! I am sure you'll enjoy the lighter moments here with us as well as the more serious discussions.

Just to chip in with the posts regarding surnames. As Andrew pointed out, surnames were not used in England before the mediaeval period - at around the mid to late 14th century, actually - unless you were of the very high aristocracy/gentry, in which case your surname would tend to reflect a placename. Johannes de Stoke or some such. Surnames thus ending in -son, i.e. Wilson, Thomson etc. have absolutely nothing to do with Viking heritage at all - they are far too late for this. They literally mean 'son of William (Will)' and 'son of Thomas (Tom)'. This is the bracket of surnames known to genealogists as patronymics, and form one of the four main categories of surnames in England, the others being: nicknames, e.g. John Short, John Black; placenames, e.g. John Ashton, John Warburton; and surnames reflecting occupations, i.e. John Smith, John Fletcher. Hope that's helped a bit.

Yes, I think his theatricals at the Rhine mutiny on the death of Augustus show a distinct trace of her hand at work.

Deary me! They'll be funding research into ancient nose-picking next, I shouldn't wonder.

Indeed I am not, nor have I ever been. I am, however, a fan of his father, Drusus. I often think that Germanicus was too much influenced by Agrippina.

Germanicus? How was he excluded until his death in 19AD? Indeed, he was given an Agrippa-like Imperium in the east and was an instrumental member of the 'imperial family'. From Tacitus Annals Book 2; 43: This is interesting, PP - was he actually given the tribuncia potestas? A maius imperium over the eastern provinces was what Agrippa received in 23 BC - the settlement of 18 BC which gave him trib. pot was much more crucial. I must say, off th etop of my head ( which all this is from) I don't remmeber him receiving the trib. pot. but I could be wrong.

Germanicus - I think our posts have crossed. But to throw the ball back into your court - I would ask what sources you use to support the fact that he was a great general. Tacitus? We all know that he painted everyone in a good light who was opposed to Tiberius. Suetonius? He merely echoed his popularity with the uneducated mob. I will admit that my 'sources' are more a modern interpretation of the ancients - Syme, Grant, Seager et al. who have sifted the primary sources and formed a less than favourable picture of this great 'godling'. What gains did he make? I will readily admit that he wanted to become the next emperor - that was the trouble. How do you defend a hysteric who, on falling ill, announces to all and sundry that he is the victim of witchcraft and poison? A drama queen if ever there was one! And let us not forget his foray into Egypt. Since the earliest days of Augustus' annexation of the province, Egypt had become the emperor's private property if you will. All generals - regardless of their rank or relation to the imperial family - had to have permission from the emperor to enter the province. Germanicus considered himself above such rules and therefore incurred Tiberius' suspicion. As a member of the imperial family he should have known how provocative this was. If this was the action of someone who could count on the legions of the empire to back him, he grossly miscalculated. Not only this - Piso was used as scapegoat to appease the people who had lost their darling. Due to the unfavourable picture of Tiberius painted by Tacitus, Germanicus has been lauded by far and away above what he deserves.

Meanwhile, the Augusta realises that she is now at a latter day Woodstock. She is persuaded of this by the appearance of Cornelius (Northern Neil) who has become some sort of reincarnation of Jimi Hendrix. The effect of recreational and creative herbs is overtaking everyone, which plays into her hands wonderfully. They will not notice if she slips a few grains of ...... something.... into the mussels in garum and offers a platter to Cato with a winning smile..... As he happily spears a mollusc she thinks to herself: 'A nice enough man, but an enemy of my husband. There can be no room for sentimentality. What I do, I do for Rome.' Doc appears and contrives to knock the food particle from Cato's fork at the last moment..... And then....

Spot on, Nephele - but I mentioned it because the word 'Spurious' is obviously taken from the Latin 'Spurius'. Thank you for that clarification. Hehe, there is also 'dratsab' as an annotation in some parish registers in England, which if you read it backwards tells you exactly what the child was....

Germanicus? How was he excluded until his death in 19AD?

May I please remind everyone that 'Castor' is a purely fictional name, created by Robert Graves. This was Drusus the younger. As for his being only related to the Claudians - where do the Agrippans stand? Drusus the younger was Vipsania's son, and I would class Agrippa as far more 'Julian' than 'Claudian'. Also, as another poster mentioned earlier in this thread - Germanicus was popular - which is not the same as his being a great general. He was a mediocre general with a sense of his own importance far outweighing his achievements.

Indeed, the man is a genius. I have commissioned my own little Temple of Vesta from him. I have always loved that temple. Glad you are pleased with the model, GO.