The Augusta

But the Botox is working a treat, P.

My dear Augustus, I have only just seen this post of yours! Thanks go to our dear Claudia Octavia for reviving the thread... However, as to the answer, I saw that you posted it later on. However... you left much of the scene out OK - trivia for Claudia, Drusus and anyone else: (Hehe a trivia thread may be a good idea for the Baths: 'Claudius', 'Rome', 'Quo bloody Vadis' - whatever you like. And it doesn't just have to be TV/movies) Identify these speakers and the scene. I won't make it easy.... "And what if he refuses?" "Well I should see that he doesn't if I were you. Appeal to his sense of honour. Men find that irresistible."

The tenor of my posts should give you a hint as to my enjoyment or otherwise, Gus. I did see it through in the interests of fairness, otherwise I would not have felt equipped to comment on it at all. But, sorry - it was OK for a light once-through, but I would not sit down to watch it again. But then, I thought this about Season One too. I have confined this enterprise to 'the ones that missed the point' cabinet, and I'll leave it at that. Truly, in ten years time, the only thing I will remember from over twenty hours of this is James Purefoy. I, for one, was not in the least wistful to see the final credits roll. (And yes - I WILL swear that on Augustus' godhead!)

Octavia actually had two Marcellae - Major and Minor. Marcella Major was the one who married Agrippa and then Iulus Antony. Marcella Minor married a Lepidus first, then a Valerius Messalla. Ingsoc - I would be interested to know the source for the daughter of one of these Marcellae marrying Varus, for I had always thought it was the younger Marcella whose daughter married Varus - not the daughter of the elder Marcella and Agrippa. Although Suetonius tells us that Agrippa had 'fathered children on her', our main primary sources do not name these children. I do not doubt that you are right, but I am anxious to know the source, so that I may correct my family tree of the JCs.

Flavia - this may sound strange, but would your producers have any objection to the crowd merely using his name - i.e. 'Domitian'? Nothing in our sources (letters, official documents and such) gives us any hint of a courtesy title being used to people in power. I rather think that is simply a very correct British invention. I doubt that a Roman would have been insulted by a crowd addressing him by his name - especially if it was the name of his gens, or his 'official' name. On the other hand, in the days when 'Caesar' was used as a title rather than a name, this would probably be the only appellation used by the mob. I don't know how you feel, but hearing addresses such as 'Your excellency' and 'Your majesty' in a Roman mouth makes me wince as it sounds so unauthentic. If all else failed and the producers insist upon giving him a modern address, 'Sir' would do, and does not compromise the authenticity half as much as the others, IMHO.

Curiosity is one thing, but the incessant attempt to rehabilitate Caligula shows all the moral clarity of a Carmela Soprano. A determination to extract truth from fiction does not equate with an attempt to rehabilitate, MPC. Seeking the truth behind such tales as Incitatus' ennoblement and Neptune's defeat is only done in the name of historical accuracy (such as we can ever know it!). And the fact that he may not have slept with all his sisters in no way makes the real Gaius a better person. Bottom line: He was a tyrant and a megalomaniac. It's the incessant prurient curiosity that he seems to provoke that gets to me - which was the point of my post on this age-old topic that keeps rearing its head again, and again, and again..... Do we see umpteen threads on your namesake's stoicism, for instance? No. And I was making the point that he is just as interesting a figure to study - if not more so, as he contributed far more to the lasting history of Rome than one tyrant who ruled for a measly four years!

Yes - happy birthday to the man with the best avatar on the site! Hope you have a great time, Ingsoc.

Judging by the amount of similar threads on here about this particular emperor, he's beginning to warrant his own sub-folder! Cato - it only goes to show that naughty boys generate more curiosity than stoics! But believe me - I do share your frustration sometimes. Trust me, guys - there are lots of equally colourful people out there. The only thing I regret about Caligula's reign is that Tacitus' account of it is lost. Who knows what picture we would have had. Tacitus hated Tiberius, yet that emperor still manages to emerge from the pages of Tacitus as a much more rounded figure than that found in Suetonius.

Oh, go on then - you've twisted my arm! Although most of us at this party are a poor sight clothed, so be it on your own head, Gaius.

Deus - I certainly have no knowledge of the great families surviving as such, but something that has always struck me as interesting is the number of Italian forenames still in use today that are obviously taken from the names of the great Patrician families: Claudius - Claudio Fabius - Fabio Julius - Giulio Valerius - Valerio are a few examples. Although my own genealogical studies have never caused me to delve into Italian surname patterns, I do find that I am curious as to when exactly the above forenames came into general use in Italy. If it was very early, then it may point to some descent from one of the big families - but that is purely speculation, and I may well be talking through the top of my head. I don't know if this is something that either Docoflove or Nephele could help us with?

Hehe - and I could have tucked little Gus under my arm! Thanks for your erudite answers, as always, Caldrail. I knew they would be at your fingertips.

I think we can all drink to that, PP. The script has really been poor this time around, although I even thought there were some weaknesses in Season 1. On the whole, it was better though.

First words babies say? Hmm. Exceptions may or may not prove the rule. Is it not an accepted 'fact' in England that babies say 'Dada' before they say 'Mama'? Certainly most babies I've known have done so. But as for our first words - my son spoke gobbledegook for months, without even attempting a word as such, although he believed he was speaking because he put different inflections and expressions into his gobbledegook and would go on and on to himself for ages. His first words were - and I kid you not - 'We Will Rock You' - as Queen was on the CD player at the time. He never once tried 'Mama'; his speech, when it came was in complete, coherent sentences - but I realise he was an exception. So - any thoughts on that one, Doc? Or did I give birth to an alien? (It did feel like that when he was 2)

Nothing to add, AC. My only comment on religion is the following: Man created God in his own image. I will never change my belief in that. They could put it on my gravestone if they like (although I'd prefer a nice quote from Shelley!)

Yes, getting back to all seriousness, here, PP. I do realise that in any dramatised version of events, a few liberties can be taken - perhaps, even, must be taken in order to present a captivating story. I have no problem with little tweakings here and there. But it's the lack of consistency that gets to me. For instance, I thought that the scene last week where Antony and Octavian walked out on Lepidus, totally ignoring his input on matters, was a very good attempt at historical accuracy. His input clearly did not count for either of them. So, if they have gone to such trouble to portray the relationship between the three, why the heck was there no mention of his attempted 'coup' in Sicily? In fact, as much as I love Ronan Vibert (who, in my mind, brought this vapid politician to life beautifully) why bother with Lepidus at all? He contributed greatly to events when he made his ham-fisted attempts after the Sicilian War. One third of the Triumvirate was ruthlessly removed by Octavian. Last night's historical events ended with Octavian's declaration of war in the Senate, therefore the viewer knows this is now a battle between East/West, Antony and Octavian. Has no-one thought to ask where Lepidus is? Did I miss any mention in the dialogue? No, I don't believe I did. These kind of slips are quite shoddy in my estimation. And at least a mention of Agrippa's brilliant role in the Sicilian War may have at least done the poor man some justice. Instead he has been portrayed as an incorruptible but ineffectual lovestruck rustic, hiding in the kitchens with his beloved. On a positive note, however, I found the fictional storyline ending where Pullo threw Gaia into the Tiber quite powerful. It contrasted beautifully with the funeral of Eirene.

OK, Legionaries: PMs are now all in your PM boxes regarding our planned trip that seems blighted by Mars and the swift-footed Mercury. Augustus Caesar and I are busy sacrificing our pets and local vagrants in an effort to appease the wrath of the War God and his golden-sandaled little runner. Stand by for announcements and updates, but please could I ask you all to attend to your PM boxes asap. Gratias.

Did you say something, GPM? .............. Ahem: I was impressed with the fact that they had done enough research to bring our dear Alfidia into things. It was a great pity that this research did not include bringing the foetus Drusus into Livia's womb. Octavian: How would you like to be married to me? What Alfidia should have said: My husband has just committed suicide in his tent, half our family are decimated - of course, she would be THRILLED to marry you. Now, it's just a question of getting rid of your non-existent Scribonia and non-existent baby daughter. Yuk! As for Livia herself......... Well, she had a lovely green dress on. Last night, she had no dress on. Nuff said. A gratuitous scene, the point of which was to show that she could read his every thought. This could have been done in a stroll through the garden And last week we found that far from being a bit of a raver in his youth, our Gus is in fact sexually repressed! As for the continuity issues - last night I couldn't even work out what year I was supposed to be in! They also merged two stories, it seemed. The famine caused by the halting of the grain supply led to the Sicilian War in 36BC - and we did have a mention of Lepidus and his legions in Africa. But, as Decimus says, young Lucius has grown up. Perhaps this episode spanned five years? I did actually give a cheer when the camera cut to Atia lifting up a blonde child. Ah - our Antonia! At least she is here. It's a pity there's no-one for her to marry! Now then - a plea for fairness here: As much as I love my Gus, he was totally white-washed in regards to Antony's will in this episode. It was NOT handed to him on a plate - he stole it from the Vestals, which was a highly illegal act. So, the writers white-wash him about this (an act he committed), yet invent sexual repression to make us loathe him. Well - whatever floats yer boat, I suppose! Performances: Purefoy can do no wrong. Walker, now that she is finally cowed, reminds us that she can play a convincing Roman matron - and I actually felt a bit sorry for her in the scene with Vorenus outside the palace. Please, Mr. Agrippa - we know you were lovely, but will you grow a pair of testicles before Actium? As for Woods, I have seen him in other work and realise here what he is trying to do, to play the cold, ruthless tyrant behind the impassive, serene mask. He is a bit inexperienced, but does OK. However, a flash of Augustus' well-known, historical humour wouldn't go amiss - but that's for the writers to sort out, not Woods. However, he's far too tall. Our family highlight: Vorenus telling Antony that Octavia had called him cowardly scum, and it was written into the faces of both actors that they knew she spoke the truth. Phew - thank god it's nearly over. Get your harpax out, Marcus!

My kids have become fans, but as they both know the history pretty well (through mama ramming it down their little throats since birth) although we do continue to watch it's mainly for soap and laughs. We pick out our highlight of the week. Sunday's episode was Lepidus (Vibert is perfect) being left to prattle on his own while big Ant and little Gus walked out. I've surprisingly switched over to following the fictional plot, as the history has been ravaged beyond all recognition. I actually shed a womanly tear for our Eirene - I have to say, that I have really warmed to this girl. And now we want that bitch Gaia to die!!!!! But talking of rushing and plot continuity etc. - it seems highly improbable to me that the writers began with the creation of Gaia as gorgeous, slouchy tart-with-a-heart and turn her into a Borgia within two episodes. And despite my earlier complaint on another thread about Erastes morphing seamlessly into Memmio - I actually quite like Memmio. He's dirty and sleasy in a compelling sort of way, and the gangland battle was great on Sunday. If I could sum it all up with just one comment, it would be: James Purefoy is the best Mark Antony I have ever seen in my life.

Oh, gosh - thanks for the reminder GPM - I had totally forgotten about Comitata! (Six lashes for me, then). Yes - let's see about Carlisle, if it's poss. But as I say - we need the Emperor's input now - asap.

It may well be looking that way, P. I would certainly prefer to change the date rather than have to change the itinerary, as we had rather a nice one planned. Hopefully the Divine Augustus will be on the Forum soon, for either PM or posting purposes. Expeditious replies, please, guys. (NN, GPM and Calders)

Bring 'em on! No problem for this 5' 4" lady! Give me a 5' 5" vegetarian health-obsessed wimp to fight any day! On a more serious note, however - it did strike me when reading the excerpt above that there must have been quite a large percentage of the population whose diet was mainly vegetarian in any case! Wasn't meat a bit of a luxury? And do we know if this special diet was just pre-fight? Rather like today's footballers who are not allowed to drink Coke or have certain foods 2 days before the Saturday fixture etc? Any thoughts on this? And Caldrail - I think you and I have had a chat about the 'average Roman height' thing before. If the average height was 5' 4" - why did Suetonius go out of his way to say Augustus was a small man at 5' 7" ? I think these 'averages' are always a bit misleading. I mean - is the average taken of all Romans, male AND female, for instance? If so, including female height would no doubt have an effect on the mean height of all? Do we know if the skeletons of many gladiators have been found? Over to you, Caldrail, as our expert on the mean man machines!

Quite. And with that in mind... OK - have you ever had the feeling you are in a downward spiral? Hexham enquiries are yielding the same results, and now they advise us that we'll be lucky to get 'anything at all' east of Haltwistle! I have been given the number for the Tourist Information Board who will have a definite list of vacancies per weekend in the area, which I can try tomorrow - but I really think we need to report back to HQ here and have AC give us his tuppence. Not knowing my Haltwhistle from my elbow, I have no idea if this would be suitable for our planned itinerary or not! And I feel I should add here, that many of these places have been booked since December 2006!! This was when the list of entrants for the GNR was announced - so I think we've been up against it from the start on this one. Bloody runners - why can't they take up line dancing? I thought I had cracked it with one call - a lovely place 3 miles from Vindolanda and Housesteads, but alas, the same dismal tale, I'm afraid, for the weekend in question. Is this looking like a shift in date? Or a shift in starting point? Editing to add: I take it none of us would be in the

I am in absolute awe at the amount of work MPC has put into this. It's a fabulous addition to the Forum, not just for the overviews he gives of the main periods of the Republic, but it can stand alone as a wonderful quick reference guide whenever you want to look someone up. Like PP, I recommend everyone to have a look at this. Well done, and thank you, Cato.

OK, Pertinax - I'm going to try there and just hope it's Ok with Calders and GPM (sure it will be). Time is getting on so I'll get on the phone tonight.