Nephele

Thanks, Primus Pilus. I'll be including the families that contributed only one member to the magistracies, in my revised list. It'll be an expanded list, because there were quite a few of these. Hi, VTC. Broughton's doesn't list Senators specifically, but since election to magisterial offices brought one into the Senatorial class (for a lifetime seat), then the names of the magistrates could be counted as Senate representatives, too. I could give you a few names from Broughton's lists for the 2nd century, but it would be pretty time-consuming to go over each list of magistrates individually for a 100-year period to make a note of each individual name. If, when I re-do my initial list, it turns out that I'm compiling the information that way after all, I'll send you what I get. Is this for that book you're planning to write? -- Nephele

If you bought this on Ebay, then don't wait too long to contact the seller and send the thing back. I don't want to see you get ripped-off. -- Nephele

Oh, I have no trouble at all transporting myself into another world, when I'm engrossed in a good book -- be it fantasy or not. In fact, there are many authors of fantasy and science fiction whose works I enjoy immensely: Ray Bradbury, Jonathan Swift, Ursula K. Le Guin, Diana Wynne Jones, C.J. Cherryh, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and Mary Stewart, to name a few. Since I'm pressed to name favorites right now, I'll say that my all-time favorite science fiction writer is James White, whose wonderfully imaginative Hospital Station series is nothing less than classic science fiction. Plus, my man happens to be an author of science fiction, fantasy, and horror, so I certainly appreciate the genre. A good fantasy novel requires more than creative world-building, however. Good characterization is essential -- whether your story is set on Alpha Prime or in Albuquerque. Sorry, but I never found Tolkien's characters to be particularly interesting -- or compelling. -- Nephele EDIT: Note to Mods. You may want to split off this thread. We've really gone off topic now!

It's interesting to note that the father of Catiline the Conspirator was named Sergius Silus (his praenomen is unknown). Additionally, the cognomen of "Silus" was also borne by Catiline's grandfather and great-grandfather -- both named Marcus Sergius Silus. Why Catiline bore a different cognomen from his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather might be explained as something of Catiline's own choosing, as cognomina were not always and necessarily hereditary. Except that we know from Smith's that "Catilina" was a pre-existing cognomen of the Sergia gens, to which Catiline belonged. Does anyone know the name of Catiline's son, which Catiline supposedly murdered to appease his paramour? It would be interesting to see whether Catiline's son bore the same cognomen as the father. -- Nephele

RomanItaly -- male or female? -- Nephele

Same here. When I start a book though I hate not to finish it. This one couldn't end quickly enough. The movies? Loved 'em. The book? Not so much. Funny how you can enjoy a movie and hate the book -- or vice versa. With me, it's Harry Potter. I quite enjoy the Potter movies, but couldn't get through the first of the books. Something about Rowling's style that I find too precious to endure. As for the vice versa... I've never really been overly keen for the movie Spartacus, but the book by Howard Fast (which I recently read) I found riveting. Whoa, we've really gone off topic here. Sorry if my abhorence of Hobbits started all this! -- Nephele

Perhaps we should just have it deified? Oh I hate to nit pick - especially with you G-Man and Nephele - but I must tell you that yesterday was the God's 2069th birthday, not his 2070th! You see, he would have been 63 in 1AD, therefore you have to add 62 to 2007, or 63 to 2006! Just ignore me - it's been one of those weeks. Now, as you were.... That's okay, The Augusta. I'm only here for the cake. -- Nephele

Instead of cutting slices from that cake for serving, shall we simply stab it 23 times? EDIT: Whoops. Wrong Caesar... -- Nephele

Salve, Asclepiades! According to classical scholar and foremost Roman cognomina maven, Iiro Kajanto, the cognomen of "Catilina" falls into that category of Roman cognomina which were obtained from the names of dishes and meals (e.g. Arvina, Canina, Merenda, Porcina, etc.), most likely because "the original bearers of these cognomina may have had a particular liking for the relevant kind of food." Considering that "Catilina" is in all probability derived from the Latin word catulina, meaning "dog's flesh" (which is backed up by classicist Max Niedermann in a 1936 issue of Mnemosyne: A Journal of Classical Studies), one might blanch at what the conspirator Catiline's ancestors might have enthusiastically dined on to merit that cognomen. The cognomen Catilina isn't exclusive to the infamous conspirator of that name, as it is a recorded cognomen of the patrician Sergia gens, and so was used by other members of that branch of the family. -- Nephele

Salve Asclepiades. I didn't think you were rude, and your interest is appreciated. As MPC suggests, you can compile a list of those plebian branches of the otherwise patrician gentes by using Smith's. Not all plebian branches listed in Smith's, though, will appear in Broughton's lists of magistracies. As I stated previously, I will be compiling an extended list of Roman families from Broughton's, which will include these branches. As to your request for the lists or database, sadly, Broughton's is accessible only in book form, and you may have to visit your public or university library to find these volumes. I'll get to your question about the cognomen of Catilina (in the other topic) later. Sadly, I have to tend to the daily grind at my job, right now. G-Manicus (a.k.a. Menenius), your gens may not be at the top of the list, but hey, you did make the list! -- Nephele

Salve, Asclepiades. I'll try to address those points you brought up: This is true that Broughton's annual lists are incomplete -- but it should be noted that T. Robert S. Broughton of Bryn Mawr College (with some collaboration on Volume I with Marcia L. Patterson of Kent Place School) compiled his annual lists of Republican magistracies from many sources (not all of these being complete, themselves). He also discarded those sources that proved to be unreliable or invented. Most of the reliable records for the early period of the Republic included only the major magistrates, and this is why these earlier, annual lists are much shorter than those lists of the later period of the Republic, which included the minor magistrates as well. Broughton's bibliography of primary and secondary sources for his work is extensive, including general histories and standard works of reference, collections of fragmentary texts and legal documents, inscriptions, coins, books and articles, Very true, and this is why MPC suggested that a listing of the branches would be helpful. As we know, for example, that the Balbi and Galli branches of the Cornelii (who appear in Broughton's annual lists) were plebian. This is what I'll be working on next, for this little project. Any patrician Cassii or Tullii will appear only in the earliest years of the Republic, and thus far as I can see there is only one record of a patrician Cassius having held a magisterial position: Sp. Cassius Viscellinus (or Vescellinus), consul in 502 BCE. Romilius is included in Broughton's, but because he was the only representative of his gens, I did not include Romilia on my initial list. (See my notes in the first posting in this thread.) I will probably add back into my statistics all of those gentes that contributed only one member to the magisterial lists. Broughton's includes all of these magistracies. And, even in the less complete lists of the early Republic, the office of Tribune of the Plebs is consistently included. I'm not certain that MPC was stating that patrician families were larger than the plebian, when he wrote: "What the patricians lacked in numbers, however, they more than made up for in productivity, with the average patrician family producing nearly 5 times the number of magistrates as the average family." I may be wrong, but I interpreted "productivity" to mean contributions of existing family members to the magistracies -- not "productivity" as in generating more offspring. -- Nephele

Thank you, GO. It's my interest in Roman nomenclature which led to a desire to find out how the various gentes statistically contributed to the Republican magistracies (and compared with each other). Combined with MPC's interest in the patrician vs. plebian influences on Roman history, this may result in an interesting joint effort here. -- Nephele

Intriguing -- and exciting, MPC! I can get that information for you, although it may take a couple of days to compile. I'd very much like to see what else can be projected from all this! -- Nephele

Centurion89, you are descended from that stern Tribune of the Plebs, C. Orchius, who authored a sumtuaria lex -- a sumptuary law -- called the "Lex Orchia" in the year 181 BCE "that limited the number of guests that could be invited for various entertainments." (See Legal and Institutional Chronology of the Roman Republic. Your cognomen of "Moderatus" (meaning "restrained, controlled") further emphasizes the no-nonsense character of your ancestors. Your praenomen is "Publius", abbreviated as "P." Your full Roman name is: P. Orchius Moderatus = Rshritpoech Dmshoy -hhy +auu Welcome to UNRV! -- Nephele

Hi, Centurion89! The idea is to scramble the letters of your actual name (first, middle, and last) -- not your screen name. I'm afraid I won't be able to get much out of "Centurion89" for you. -- Nephele

Well, look no further -- you've found the best place! Hail and welcome, Centurion89! -- Nephele

Not Tolkien. Actually, we've had something similar to this topic, and you may want to check it out here. But this included non-fiction as well as fiction. Wish I could say I have a favorite author of fiction, but I tend to read more non-fiction than fiction, and I guess my favorites in fiction depend on who I'm currently enjoying -- which can be a wide range, from the delightful children's historical fiction of Caroline Lawrence to the black humor of Chuck Palahniuk. -- Nephele

Good suggestions all. It should be an interesting project, if I can designate some time for it. Well, Broughton's work was first published by the American Philological Association about a half-century ago, so the APA has a lot of catching up to do with modern technology, if they should ever be inclined to make the entire work available as a searchable text file on a CD or the web. That would be amazing, if they did, and I'd certainly pay money for a subscription. I'm sure others would, too, since the hard copy text is so expensive and difficult to come by. With your love of the Republic, MPC, I could see you really enjoying these volumes. -- Nephele

Ah, I think I see what you mean now. In which case, I would need to compile data based on magistracies on a year-to-year basis, rather than by occurrence of name alone over the entire span of the Republic. As with the consular lists, which show us definitively which gentes contributed the most members to that particular office, and when. I put together my list chiefly from names as they appear in Broughton's index, cross-referencing them with the body of Broughton's work as an additional check, to give an overview of the frequency of appearance of the individual gentes holding office throughout the entire period of the Republic. I'll consider going over each of the annual lists individually, and compiling gentes that way (which will take considerable more time than a mere weekend!) -- Nephele

Shame on you Eh. While I admire Tolkien's ability to construct artificial languages, I find his novels tiresome. And I'm fairly understating my disdain for Hobbits when I say they are "irritating". -- Nephele

Thank you, MPC! No, I didn't make a note of dates, but it wouldn't really have helped much here, regarding your suggestion. The problem with this is that, while Broughton drew on numerous sources in recording Republican magistrates, their years of office, and their offices held, he explains that "earlier periods are sketchily treated" due to less information being available. And so more names (with accompanying offices held) appear under Broughton's annual lists towards the end of the Republic, than at the beginning. Broughton apologizes in the preface to his work by stating: "The present collection is not designed to serve as a complete prosopography of the Roman Republic, the necessary scale of which would take us too far afield, but may help to clear the way for one." I just now compiled a list of dates for first office held by each of the Valerii and Fabii cited in Broughton's volumes and, as I imagined (due to the reasons given above), the occurrence of names is pretty evenly distributed over the period of time covered. For the Valerii, 32% of their names appear as having held office during the 1st century BCE, 20% during the 2nd century, 20% during the 3rd, 13% during the 4th, 10% during the 5th, and 5% during the 6th. For the Fabii, 19.5% of their names appear as having held office during the 1st century, 22% during the 2nd, 22% during the 3rd, 19.5% during the 4th, and 17% during the 5th. -- Nephele

Out of curiosity, I decided to compile a statistical listing of what I shall presume to have been the most powerful and influential gentes of Rome during the time of the Republic. I'm basing this assessment on the number of magistrates produced by each gens. The following list contains the gentes of magistrates listed in volumes I and II of Broughton's The Magistrates of the Roman Republic (509 BCE to 31 BCE), including consuls, praetors, aediles, tribunes, quaestors, etc. 262 gentes are represented here, listed from 1st place to 41st place, in descending order of rank. Gentes that contributed equal numbers of magistrates share the same ranking. Gentes that contributed only one magistrate, during the years covered, have not been included on this list. The first number appearing before a gens is the ranking of that gens on the list. The second number represents the number of members from that gens who are listed in Broughton's as having been magistrates during the covered years of the Republic. Notes on names: While Norbana isn't strictly the name of a gens, I've included it on this list because members of this family tended to use Norbanus as their nomen gentilicium anyway. Those Norbani listed in Broughton's had appended the cognomina of Balbus and Flaccus to their name, thus further indicating that Norbanus, while not originally a nomen gentilicium, nevertheless developed into one through usage as such. Claudia and Clodia have been combined, as these are variations of the same name. Likewise with Caelia/Coelia, Plautia/Plotia, and Quinctia/Quintia. In each instance where spelling variations of the same name have been combined, I've included in parentheses the number of magistrates listed in Broughton's originally assigned to each name. One may ask: "What is the value of such a list?" Well, besides giving me something amusing to do this weekend, this list may not only serve to illustrate which gentes may have been the most influential during the time of Rome's Republic, but also indicate the degree of each gens' influence in comparison with other gentes. 1 185 Cornelia 2 92 Claudia (81) / Clodia (11) 3 78 Valeria 4 72 Fabia 5 64 Licinia 5 64 Servilia 6 62 Manlia 7 56 Aemilia 8 53 Junia 9 52 Papiria 9 52 Sempronia 10 50 Furia 10 50 Marcia 10 50 Postumia 11 47 Caecilia 12 43 Sulpicia 13 39 Julia 13 39 Minucia 14 36 Quinctia (34) / Quintia (2) 15 35 Atilia 16 34 Calpurnia 16 34 Fulvia 17 30 Plautia (27) / Plotia (3) 18 29 Pompeia 19 28 Octavia 20 27 Aurelia 21 26 Pomponia 22 24 Cassia 22 24 Porcia 22 24 Terentia 23 23 Annia 23 23 Popillia 24 22 Aelia 24 22 Appuleia 25 20 Antistia 25 20 Lucretia 26 19 Fonteia 26 19 Oppia 26 19 Coelia (10) / Caelia (9) 27 18 Baebia 27 18 Domitia 27 18 Hostilia 27 18 Memmia 27 18 Verginia 28 17 Acilia 28 17 Genucia 29 16 Antonia 29 16 Aquillia 29 16 Livia 29 16 Sergia 29 16 Titia 29 16 Veturia 30 13 Publicia 30 13 Titinia 31 12 Mucia 31 12 Pinaria 31 12 Rutilia 31 12 Scribonia 32 11 Aebutia 32 11 Fannia 32 11 Flavia 32 11 Maria 32 11 Plaetoria 32 11 Sextilia 33 10 Attia 33 10 Decia 33 10 Juventia 33 10 Maenia 33 10 Mamilia 33 10 Nautia 33 10 Opimia 33 10 Publilia 33 10 Quinctilia 33 10 Sicinia 33 10 Tullia 33 10 Vibia 34 9 Aufidia 34 9 Cloelia 34 9 Cosconia 34 9 Curtia 34 9 Herennia 34 9 Horatia 34 9 Lucilia 34 9 Lutatia 34 9 Manilia 34 9 Menenia 34 9 Sextia 35 8 Atinia 35 8 Carvilia 35 8 Duillia 35 8 Flaminia 35 8 Hortensia 35 8 Mummia 35 8 Nonia 35 8 Rubria 35 8 Volumnia 36 7 Considia 36 7 Decimia 36 7 Gabinia 36 7 Lollia 36 7 Poetelia 36 7 Silia 36 7 Trebonia 36 7 Villia 37 6 Caninia 37 6 Curia 37 6 Didia 37 6 Fundania 37 6 Gegania 37 6 Icilia 37 6 Laetoria 37 6 Mallia 37 6 Munatia 37 6 Otacilia 37 6 Papia 37 6 Peducaea 37 6 Perperna 37 6 Pupia 37 6 Sestia 37 6 Tremellia 38 5 Anicia 38 5 Ateia 38 5 Caedicia 38 5 Canuleia 38 5 Cluvia 38 5 Curiatia 38 5 Egnatia 38 5 Fabricia 38 5 Laelia 38 5 Matiena 38 5 Naevia 38 5 Ogulnia 38 5 Petillia 38 5 Roscia 38 5 Voconia 38 5 Volcatia 39 4 Aburia 39 4 Allia 39 4 Antia 39 4 Apustia 39 4 Aurunculeia 39 4 Calidia 39 4 Cincia 39 4 Cominia 39 4 Cornificia 39 4 Gallia 39 4 Gellia 39 4 Helvia 39 4 Magia 39 4 Metilia 39 4 Numitoria 39 4 Petronia 39 4 Sentia 39 4 Septimia 40 3 Afrania 40 3 Albinia 40 3 Arria 40 3 Asellia 40 3 Asinia 40 3 Aulia 40 3 Autronia 40 3 Caesetia 40 3 Catia 40 3 Cestia 40 3 Cocceia 40 3 Coponia 40 3 Coruncania 40 3 Crepereia 40 3 Decidia 40 3 Fufia 40 3 Gratidia 40 3 Insteia 40 3 Laberia 40 3 Maelia 40 3 Norbana 40 3 Rabiria 40 3 Rupilia 40 3 Salonia 40 3 Saufeia 40 3 Siccia 40 3 Stertinia 40 3 Tarquitia 40 3 Vargunteia 40 3 Velleia 40 3 Vergilia 40 3 Vettia 40 3 Volusia 41 2 Afinia 41 2 Albia 41 2 Aliena 41 2 Ampia 41 2 Ancharia 41 2 Apronia 41 2 Arrenia 41 2 Arruntia 41 2 Axia 41 2 Caepasia 41 2 Caesia 41 2 Carisia 41 2 Cicereia 41 2 Cispia 41 2 Cossutia 41 2 Critonia 41 2 Cupiennia 41 2 Digitia 41 2 Duronia 41 2 Egnatuleia 41 2 Epidia 41 2 Erucia 41 2 Falcidia 41 2 Folia 41 2 Fufidia 41 2 Furnia 41 2 Herminia 41 2 Hirtuleia 41 2 Labiena 41 2 Larcia 41 2 Ligaria 41 2 Livineia 41 2 Lucceia 41 2 Maecilia 41 2 Maevia 41 2 Maiania 41 2 Mania 41 2 Mindia 41 2 Nasidia 41 2 Nigidia 41 2 Novia 41 2 Numicia 41 2 Numisia 41 2 Occia 41 2 Pedia 41 2 Procilia 41 2 Pullia 41 2 Quintia 41 2 Rabuleia 41 2 Raecia 41 2 Remmia 41 2 Saenia 41 2 Sallustia 41 2 Salvia 41 2 Scantinia 41 2 Scantia 41 2 Scaptia 41 2 Serria 41 2 Sosia 41 2 Statia 41 2 Thoria 41 2 Tillia 41 2 Tituria 41 2 Trebellia 41 2 Tuccia 41 2 Turia 41 2 Turullia 41 2 Valgia 41 2 Varia 41 2 Ventidia 41 2 Venuleia 41 2 Vibullia 41 2 Vinicia 41 2 Volteia 41 2 Volusena -- Nephele

Sheer splendor. I went to the site and printed up that entire poem. Thanks for that, Asclepiades. I really enjoyed that. *Nephele places a garland of laurel on Asclepiades' head, for finding that poem.* And that poem you found, LW, was fine stuff, too. A garland for you, as well. -- Nephele

For shame, MPC. This would have made a better Playbill example! -- Nephele

I am not worthy Domina You are eminently worthy, m'lord. I am delighted that you thought to include mime and pantomime in a thread on Roman theatre! You've made a good point! (And, as they might say in vaudeville, I imagine the buxom woman on stage made a couple of good points, herself...) The actresses were no doubt a draw to the theatre, as Davis states: "...their presence brings unsteady youths to the theaters like flies, and affairs with actresses are quite normal things with a type of young bloods." Davis also quotes Cicero who, in defense of a certain client named Plancus, wrote: "He's accused of having run off with an actress? Why that's just an amusement excellently sanctioned by custom!" -- Nephele