Nephele

I can see you're having as much fun with Munzer's book as I am. However, Broughton identifies a different Servilius as that Tribune of the Plebs in 212 -- Gaius Servilius Casca. Broughton also notes the fact that Munzer suggested that it was indeed Geminus who was this Tribune, and that "the cognomen Casca was inserted [by Livy] to veil disgraceful conduct in an eminent Servilius." Cover-ups abound! The map not only shows the tribe to be the Arnensis, but in the chapter that lists the tribes of Republican senatorial gentes and Italian communities, the Marrucini of Teate are included under the Arnensis. And, in the list of Republican senators with tribes, C. Asinius Pollio from the Marrucini (Teate) is listed as belonging to the Arnensis tribe. Do you not have this book, then? I can picture you having fun with this one, too. -- Nephele

Indeed. While Munzer acknowledges Mommsen's scholarship in believing that the father of the Servilii Gemini brothers had been a patrician, Munzer does make what appears to be a good case for the father himself having made the transfer to plebeian status "around 220 or even earlier." (pages 130-131). Pertaining to the rules of adoption brought up in this thread, Munzer explains: "The rule was that a son was allowed to change to another family by adoption only if the continuity of his own clan was adequately assured by remaining sons; in the change from the patriciate to the plebs this will have applied even more. From the outset it is thus hardly probable that each of the two brothers [Gaius and Marcus Servilius] would personally have taken the same step, especially at a time when the father's premature removal from the circle of his family and the losses on the battlefields of the Hannibalic War caused the patricians' small numbers to dwindle; it is far more likely that they inherited plebeian status from their father." As perhaps an entertaining aside, Munzer's statement regarding the dwindling of the patrician numbers due to losses on the battlefield is further emphasized by the irrepressible Ambrose Bierce in his "Plebeian" entry for his Devil's Dictionary: "Plebeian, n. An ancient Roman who in the blood of his country stained nothing but his hands. Distinguished from the Patrician, who was a saturated solution." -- Ambrose Bierce And for those of you interested in Roman nomenclature, here's one additional bit of information about the Servilii Gemini brothers (which I've included in my notes for when I get around to doing the Servilii in my project on the surnames of the various gentes): These brothers inherited their cognomen of "Geminus" from their grandfather, Publius Servilius Geminus (consul of 252), who had been a twin. Munzer states (p. 128-129, based on Cicero's evidence) "that the resemblance of the two [Publius and his twin brother Quintus] was quite famous and had earned for them their surname [Geminus = twin], referred to, moreover, also by the representation of the Dioskuroi on later coins." -- Nephele

No, freedmen and sponsored citizens would generally use their existing name as their new cognomen, which would be added to the adopted praenomen and nomen gentilicium of their former master or sponsor. This is why we find thousands of different cognomina in Latin inscriptions, but comparatively fewer nomina gentilicia. For example, the Jewish historian Joseph ben Matthias became Titus Flavius Josephus upon becoming a Roman citizen, using a Latinized version of his existing name, which he added as a cognomen to the adopted praenomen and nomen gentilicium of his patron, Titus Flavius Sabinus Vespasianus. The fictional Ben-Hur notwithstanding (as you'll recall, he gets adopted by Quintus Arrius in the story), I think that the Romans, particularly the patricians, were more inclined merely to sponsor their manumitted slaves and foreign associates. As clients of the patron family, such sponsored individuals gained a certain amount of prestige and protection, and the patons received their clients' favors and attention. It's my understanding that adoption was generally reserved for those who were already related in some way -- either by blood or by political ties -- to the adopting family. -- Nephele

I've been reading through Taylor's book and see that Pompeius here has nicely and succinctly summarized Taylor's research pertaining to those questions you'd asked, GPM, regarding which tribes held the most power. Taylor makes it clear that the reason why the rural tribes carried more weight than the urban tribes is because the aristocrats of Rome (who were also the landowners) primarily belonged to the rural tribes. Freedmen were generally assigned (by the Censors) to the urban tribes, which also consisted of tradesmen, craftsmen, and immigrants. Of the four urban tribes, it appears that the Suburana and the Esquilina were the weakest. Taylor states: "The inferiority of the Suburana and the Esquilina comes out clearly in the exclusion of these two tribes from the Augustan assembly of senators and knights which served for the destinatio of consuls and praetors. As I have stated elsewhere, that exculusion was based on republican precedents, and those two tribes had probably had a less favorable place inthe comitia, perhaps being excluded from the lot for the centuria praerogativa of the centuriate assembly, which the Augustan assembly replaced." (p. 148) As for the most powerful of the tribes... If "power" is to be deemed by the number of senators that could be found within each tribe, then Taylor gives the following ranking (based on "chance discoveries of inscriptions and incidental allusions in the sources") in her chapter titled "Analysis of the Lists of Senators and Tribes." Starting with "most powerful" and working downwards (Taylor's quotes are in dark blue): "The largest number, including some queried names, is seventeen in the..." PAPIRIA "...with many representatives of the Fulvii and the Porcii. Next come the..." AEMILIA CORNELIA MAECIA QUIRINA SERGIA TERENTINA VELINA "...with twelve to fifteen nomina. The smallest numbers, omitting the Esquilina with no names, are in the..." VOTURIA (3) SCAPTIA (2) COLLINA (2) SUBURANA (1) I'm still reading Taylor's book -- it's fascinating, and I've decided I'll have to get a copy of my own. -- Nephele

What's latin for 'bathroom attendant'?....... "Bederus" -- Latin by way of the ancient Yiddish beder. -- Nephele

This thread has really careened off-topic now, and I'll be sending it to the arena for those who wish to continue debating the relative merits of Bojaxhiu. Antiochus III, I would suggest you take a visit to your public library to begin your quest for more information on AIDS in Africa. And, no, I do not think that the AIDS virus is a conspiracy by the U.S. -- Nephele

I found a local university library that has the book, and I'm picking it up tonight! Will share information here tomorrow, after I've had a chance to read relish this book. -- Nephele

Ah, I just realized that this is a book review, not an article on the Roman tribes. I checked with Amazon and I see that the reviewed book, The Voting Districts of the Roman Republic: The Thirty-Five Urban and Rural Tribes by Lily Ross Taylor is only available as a used copy -- and quite a pricey one at that. I'll have to see about the possibility of interloaning this book from another library that may already have it, as I'm not certain I'll buy the expensive used copy for my own library. -- Nephele

As is sometimes the case, my dear GO, I haven't a fookin' clue as to what you are talking about. -- Nephele

I disagree. While I personally don't regard Agnes Gonxha She's-Not-My-Mother Bojaxhiu with "unbounded hatred," I think that my own expressed distaste for her anti-condom advocacy in AIDS-ravaged nations (as well as a few other things about Bojaxhiu which haven't been mentioned here at all) is not without reason. It's to be expected that, when compiling a list of "Influential People," the virtues and faults of any particular individual may be discussed -- particularly when the fame of any particular individual might be due to some of those individual's faults having been perceived as virtues. I also disagree with those here who maintain that Bojaxhiu wasn't influential enough to have been included on this list. There are millions of people (not exclusively Roman Catholic) around the globe who not only revere this woman but who also regard her as an influential role model, despite some peculiar, anti-life notions of hers. -- Nephele

Birthday hails to you, AoS! -- Nephele

Yes, they would, and it needn't necessarily have been a step down, as there were plebeian families (such as the Livii) who were counted among Rome's aristocratic families. Perhaps the most famous example of a plebeian adopted into a patrician gens is that of Octavius' adoption by Julius Caesar. Although, Suetonius does tell us that the once-patrician-turned-plebeian Octavii were restored to patrician rank by Caesar (most likely on the occasion of the adoption of the young Octavius). I was only able to find two other examples of plebeians having been adopted by patricians, so perhaps it wasn't a common occurrence. Or, perhaps more likely, (as Maty stated earlier in this thread) "the name you took depended on the relative importance of the birth and adoptive family" -- and those from families whose names didn't provide much "mileage" simply didn't bother affixing the -anus ending to their birth name and adding it to their adoptive name. The two that I did find were: Mamercus Aemilius Lepidus Livianus (consul of 77 BCE, a member of the plebeian Livii adopted by the patrician Aemilii Lepidi) and Quintus Fabius Vergilianus (a member of the plebeian Vergilii adopted by the patrician Fabii, who served as a legate under Appius Claudius Pulcher in Cilicia from 53 to 51 BCE). -- Nephele

Ooo, great find, GPM! Yes, I do have JSTOR access at my library. Unfortunately, I don't have remote access, so I won't be able to read that article until I'm back at work tomorrow morning. Can't wait! PM me your e-mail addy, if you like, and I'll e-mail you a copy tomorrow (if you don't already have JSTOR access of your own). Meanwhile, I've put together a little chronology of when the various Roman tribes came into existence. Quotes in dark blue are by Dr. Leonhard Schmitz from his article titled "Tribus" in Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. Indented quotes are from Livy and Broughton. "The four city tribes were called by the same name as the regions which they occupied..." SUBURANA ESQUILINA COLLINA PALATINA "For the city being divided into four parts, according to the regions and hills which were then inhabited, [servius Tullius] called these divisions tribes, as I think, from the tribute." -- Livy, 1.43 "The names of the sixteen country tribes which continued to belong to Rome after the conquest of Porsenna, are in their alphabetical order as follow..." AEMILIA CAMILIA CORNELIA FABIA GALERIA HORATIA LEMONIA MENENIA PAPIRIA POLLIA PAPIRIA PUPINIA ROMILIA SERGIA VETURIA VOLTINIA "As Rome gradually acquired possession of more of the surrounding territory, the number of tribes also was gradually increased. When Appius Claudius, with his numerous train of clients, emigrated to Rome, lands were assigned to them in the district where the Anio flows into the Tiber, and a new tribe...was formed..." CLAUDIA "For Attus Clausus, afterwards called at Rome Appius Claudius...fled from Regillum to Rome, accompanied by a great number of clients. The rights of citizenship and land on the other side of the Anio were conferred on them. It was called the old Claudian tribe, and was increased by the addition of some tribesmen who had come from that country." -- Livy, 2.16 "Then Ap. Claudius and P. Servilius were elected consuls [495 BCE]...The tribes at Rome were increased to twenty-one." -- Livy 2.21 "This tribe, which Livy (ii. 16, if the reading is correct) calls vetus Claudia tribus, was subsequently enlarged, and was then designated by the name..." CRUSTUMINA or CLUSTUMINA "This name is the first instance of a country tribe being named after a place, for the sixteen older ones all derived their names from persons or heroes who were in the same relation to them, as the Attic heroes called [eponumoi] were to the Attic phylae. In B.C. 387, the number of tribes was increased to twenty-five by the addition of four new ones..." STELLATINA TROMENTINA SABATINA ARNIENSIS "The successive interreges were, Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, Servius Sulpicius Camerinus, and Lucius Valerius Potitus [387 BCE]... Four tribes were added from the new citizens, the Stellatine, the Tormentine, the Sabatine, and the Arnian, and they made up the number of twenty-five tribes." -- Livy, 6.5 "387 B.C...Four new tribes were created out of the former territory of the Veii..." -- Broughton, The Magistrates of the Roman Republic, Volume I, p. 99. "In 358 B.C. two more...were formed of Volscians..." POMPTINA PUBLILIA "To this disaster moreover was added, the laying waste of the Roman territory, which the Privernatians, and afterwards the people of Velitrae, committed by a sudden incursion. The same year two tribes, the Pomptine and Publilian, were added." -- Livy, 7.15 "In B.C. 332, the Censors Q. Publilius Philo and Sp. Postumius increased the number of tribes to twenty-nine, by the addition of the..." MAECIA SCAPTIA "The same year the census was performed, and the new citizens were rated; on their account the Maescian and Scaptian tribes were added: the censors who added them were Quintus Publilius Philo and Spurius Postumius." -- Livy, 8.17 "332 B.C...Censors Q. Publilius...Sp. Postumius...Enrolled new Latin citizens, adding the tribes Maecia and Scaptia..." -- Broughton, The Magistrates of the Roman Republic, Volume I, p.141-142. "In B.C. 318...were added..." UFENTINA FALERINA "Marcus Foslius Flaccinator and Lucius Plautius Venno were the next raised to the consulship [318 BCE]... At Rome, two additional tribes were constituted, the Ufentine and Falerine." -- Livy, 9.20 "In B.C. 299 two others...were added by the censors..." ANIENSIS TERENTINA "The general survey was performed, this year, by Publius Sempronius Sophus and Publius Sulpicius Saverrio, censors; and two tribes were added, the Aniensian and Terentine." -- Livy, 10.9 "300 B.C...Censors P. Sempronius...P. Sulpicius...confirmed by Livy (10.9.14), who has them complete the lustration in 299, after adding the tribes Aniensis and Teretina." -- Broughton, The Magistrates of the Roman Republic, Volume I, p. 172. "...and at last, in B.C. 241, the number of tribes was augmented to thirty-five, by the addition of the..." QUIRINA VELINA "This number was never afterwards increased, as none of the conquered nations were after this incorporated with the sovereign Roman state." -- Nephele

As the name of one's tribe could be an element of one's own name (for male Roman citizens), it's my understanding that one would belong to the tribe of one's father if one's father had been a Roman citizen. This is despite the fact that the tribes were geographically based voting units. Newly made Roman citizens, such as freedmen and sponsored foreigners, would be assigned to one of the existing tribes, but generally they went to the four urban tribes, named for specific areas of Rome: Collina, Esquilina, Palatina, or Suburana. If a citizen moved to a new area, he didn't change his tribe -- his assigned tribe was a permanent feature of his name. The political importance of the tribes changed over time (as the number of tribes rose to 35) with the non-urban based tribes (representing landowners) carrying more weight -- until the creation of the Comitia Tributa (which formed one of two assemblies of Rome), which gave more say in political matters to the urban dwellers and plebeians. (Someone who is more versed in Rome's politics, please correct me if I'm a bit off here). Not that I know of, but what a wonderful project that would make! -- Nephele

Perfect! I should have no problem meeting up with you, mom, and bro', then! -- Nephele

DoL, ask your mom and brother what they'd like to see in NYC, and I'll see what I can pull together. Do you know the precise dates you'll be coming? July 11-27 is the Newport Music Festival, and I go to that every summer. I missed Pantagathus' NYC visit last year because I'd already bought my tickets. I don't go for the entire two weeks, so if I know in advance when you're coming, I'll see if I can work around the Festival. -- Nephele

little_boots, you are a member of the Ancharia gens, making you related to Q. Ancharius, a tribune of the plebs who opposed Caesar's agrarian law in 59 BCE, "and in consequence of his services to the aristocratical party obtained the praetorship" in 56 BCE. Your cognomen is "Caper," meaning "he-goat". Your praenomen is "Tiberius," customarily abbreviated as "Ti." Your full Roman name is: Ti. Ancharius Caper = iipaarknrcenahte -ken +cus Welcome to UNRV! -- Nephele

Wow, it's like your going to be on the Baseball Tour. That doesn't leave much, if any, time for you to see NYC. Have you been to NYC before? I don't remember if you said. And, does your brother already live here? Anyway, since you're doing an afternoon game at the stadium on Tuesday, does that mean you might be free Tuesday evening? Would you and your brother like to grab a nosh at the Carnegie Deli or Stage Deli? Then we could stroll down to Times Square, perhaps stop at Bryant Park to ride the antique carousel (it's gorgeous at night, and goofy fun), and then head to Brendan's Pub for a pint or two. Alternately, we could stroll to Rockefeller Plaza (also very pretty at night) and perhaps take in the city views from the Top of the Rock. There's a lot of other stuff to do, but I don't know how tired you may be after your red-eye flight and Yankee game. -- Nephele

It's been my experience that Serendipity is MUCH more agreeable than that Karma chick. (Even though they both have hippy names.) But Karma has confirmed to me that you'll be visiting New York this summer, and that we'll get to meet up. So, she gets points for that, if it comes about. Wait'll you see what Serendipity has planned for you here in New York, though. -- Nephele

Took me 6 minutes! Woo-hoo! I see you can create your own crossword puzzles, too. Fun find, DoL! Now, bring on the Latin SCRABBLE! Whee! -- Nephele

That's so exciting! I would've loved to have been there. Any chance you might someday record your shtik and put it on YouTube? -- Nephele

Even if the fullers, for the final stage of cleaning, rinsed out their customers' garments with fresh water to remove the urine odor, one gets the impression from Pliny that the smell of urine was something that the ancient Romans took in their stride. In Book 28, Chapter 18 ("Remedies Derived from the Urine") of his Natural History, Pliny wrote about how people liberally rubbed urine onto their bodies as a liniment, as an anti-itch ointment, and for various other cures, including centipede bites: "...the person who has been injured has only to touch the crown of his head with a drop of his own urine, and he will experience an instantaneous cure." Pee-pee had a lot of uses in ancient Rome, in addition to laundry purposes. -- Nephele

Cool deal! -- Nephele

I was thinking that, too, after watching that brief video. Really, it almost looked to me like a male (?) singer's version of Cyndi Lauper's "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun". -- Nephele

One of my favorite quotes is by Seneca the Younger, from one of his letters to his friend Lucilius: "Nothing, to my way of thinking, is a better proof of a well ordered mind than one's ability to stop just where one is and pass some time in one's own company." It has always been my own belief that solitude -- even alienation -- isn't so much a thing to be endured, as it is a thing to be relished. Some think that the journey of life begins by understanding others. I think that the journey begins by first understanding oneself. And so that quote of Seneca's has special meaning for me. -- Nephele