Nephele

Welcome to UNRV, Titus Trebatius Sacerdos. I suggest you have a look at the topics in our Quintus Libri sub forum. This forum was started for UNRV members to express their top 5 book choices on any given Roman topic, and you'll find a number of helpful recommendations there for yourself. Here are a couple of topics from Quintus Libri that might be of particular interest to you: Top 5 on the Early Empire (by Ursus) Five Books to Understand the Fall of the Republic (by M. Porcius Cato) You'll find many of our members recommending books written by classics scholar and author Philip Matyszak, who also happens to be a contributing member of UNRV. Other contributing authors and members of UNRV have been Andrew Dalby and Caroline Lawrence. And, of course, there are the introductory articles on ancient Rome that you'll find here on the UNRV site, which have been mostly written by Primus Pilus, one of UNRV's triumviri (administrators). Enjoy! -- Nephele

Sisto says he realized the items his father collected belonged "to the world, not to an individual," so he confronted his father, causing a schism in the family. "It was enough to keep us apart for over a decade," Sisto says. Not for nuthin, but I wonder whether Sisto's confrontation with his father caused the old man to cut his son out of his will? In which case, it no doubt would have been easier for a disinherited son to tip off the FBI regarding the stolen goods. "I didn't want the event of my father's death to mean an inheritance for our family... Whatever the case (and purely for the sake of entertaining family drama), I wouldn't mind hearing whether the rest of the family (that stood to inherit) shared in Sisto's altruism. Thank goodness the old man never had a fire in his house. -- Nephele

"Oh" She said, "I thought you were a jogger". In the changing rooms of a gig after midnight? Yah, as if, in the changing rooms of a gig after midnight. Unless the woman journalist was using "jogger" as a polite euphemism for "band's gay groupie." Still, sounds like you had fun, even if you didn't get any chicks. -- Nephele

True, but the footnote's author does cite one other 19th century historian as his source for that passage -- William Blair -- whom I suspect may have himself cited ancient sources for that statement in his oft-quoted and, apparently, definitive work on the subject of Roman slavery. I was unable to find a free download of Blair's work on the Web, but I see from WorldCat that the New York Public Library has a copy of Blair's Inquiry into the State of Slavery Amongst the Romans. If I get a chance this weekend, I may visit NYPL and have a look for that book. Or, you could check out WorldCat.org and see if there's a library near you that has Blair's work in its collection. Blair's work seems to be mostly found in university libraries. -- Nephele

While I'm not a fan of bigger government, I have to admit (as I told Aurelia in PM) that I got a kick out of reading how y'all had a common voting day yesterday. To see people from different countries talking on the 'net about all going to the polls the same way on the same day, and discussing issues (for better or for worse) that y'all have in common, demonstrates more than anything how united Europe has become. -- Nephele

Indeed, that book is handy in addressing one of the original questions posed by Ludovicus at the start of this thread: From a footnote on page 28: "On the death of a master who had maintained his slave-girl as a concubine, she and her children got free, by law, in spite of any thing to the contrary, contained in the will of the deceased. A female slave, marrying a free person, with consent of her master, who gave her a dowry, was forthwith deemed a freedwoman." -- Nephele P.S. For anyone who wants to see (and participate in) a practical application of slave titles from the cited book, Roman Antiquities, clicky here. I can always use more slaves.

Check out this book for comprehensive lists of slaves identified by their specific duties, with their Latin titles: Roman Antiquities: Or an Account of Manners and Customs of the Romans You can download this entire book for free, and you will find the lists of various slave titles on pages 29 through 32. List III.2, on page 30, gives the Latin titles of the personal attendants. -- Nephele

Welcome, Bill Thayer! It's so nice to have you join us here at UNRV! I hope you'll stick around! -- Nephele

His name is auspicious! eeeghknnorrst = "Stronger Enekh" Enekh: ancient Egyptian name element, meaning "life; spirit." -- Nephele

Yay, Doc! If you care to scramble (for privacy) his name for me I'll see if his anagram is auspicious! -- Nephele

Here are my parents' favorite musical sisters: The Barry Sisters. -- Nephele

Boogedy-boogedy! -- Nephele

I have found a scheming, ambitious, and deliciously infamous Quarta for you, Formosus. She was named Quarta Hostilia, a fourth-born daughter, and the wife of the consul Gaius Calpurnius Piso, who died while in office (180 BCE). It was believed that Quarta Hostilia had poisoned her husband, in a bid to advance her son born of a previous marriage: The death of the consul aroused the strongest suspicion. He is said to have been murdered by his wife, Quarta Hostilia. When her son Q. Fulvius Flaccus was declared consul in place of his step-father, the death of Piso aroused much greater misgivings. Witnesses came forward who asserted that after Albinus and Piso had been declared consuls, Flaccus having been defeated in the election was reproached by his mother for having failed three times in his candidature for the consulship, and she went on to say that she was getting ready to canvass and would manage in less than two months to have him made consul. Livy 40.37 -- Nephele

Yes, either way, it went badly for the slaves -- regardless of whether they were compulsorily sold to the State so that they could be tortured into denouncing their former masters, or whether they were made freedmen for the specific purpose of having their testimony tortured out of them. And, by the time of the Empire, freedmen were being legally tortured. I wasn't aware of what Kosmo wrote above: "In the Late Empire not only slaves but anyone who did not have 50 gold coins had his testimony taken under torture." I'm pretty certain, though, that during the time of the Republic no Roman citizen could be legally tortured. One sees how the civil rights that came with highly coveted Roman citizenship were chipped away after the fall of the Republic. -- Nephele

You nit picking again of course the word "merciless" doesn't exist in Hebrew but if I would write "חסרי רחמים" which is it's Hebrew equivalent nobody on this board would understand. My childhood Hebrew is poor, but I certainly recognize "rachamim" ("mercy, compassion") in that second word (right to left). -- Nephele

Is there any real evidence for that ? Gratuitous torture, or applied as punishment is almost omnipresent in the classical histories, but I can't remember ever having read anything of that kind. Well, we could go back to Tacitus to find some examples of this evidence you requested. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a02030.htm When the accused denied this, it was decided that his slaves who recognised the writing should be examined by torture. (2.30) http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a03060.htm His slaves too were sold by auction to the state-agent, to be examined by torture. (3.67) These two references apply to the modification of the law, in which slaves (who were customarily tortured in court cases could, nevertheless, not be tortured to prove the guilt of their own masters) were compulsorily sold to the State so that torture could thereby be applied legally in cases against their now former masters. Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities (3rd edition, J. Murray: 1891) offers a comprehensive article on the subject, under the the first entry titled "Tormentum," providing additional primary sources for the following: "The rule as to slaves' evidence was the same at Rome as in Greece; their voluntary statements were not received except under special circumstances, as when they gave information of conspiracies against the state; they were tortured to make them confess what it was sought to prove." For both ancient Greeks and ancient Romans: "It was in taking the evidence of slaves, whose willing testimony was not accepted, that the torture was most commonly employed..." (Again, Smith provides primary sources for this statement.) -- Nephele

As I told Neil privately (and I'll post it here as well), ancient warfare isn't usually an interest of mine -- but Neil's review makes me want to pick up this magazine! Well done, Neil! And, well done, Medusa, on your article for the magazine! -- Nephele

May you have an exceptionally fine day today! Keep it Roman! -- Nephele

Thank you, Formosus! As for Daughter #4... Her name would have been "Quarta," and there are a number of Quartae to be found in the CIL. We also find the names "Quartilla," "Quartina," "Quartinula," "Quartua," and "Quartula" having been in use, although these were most likely derived from their fathers' nomina gentilicia and cognomina, rather than bestowed to indicate order of birth. -- Nephele

When I was asked to be a guest blogger at Nameberry.com (a website owned by best-selling baby names books mavens, Linda Rosenkrantz and Pamela Redmond Satran), I submitted an introductory article on ancient Roman nomenclature, along with a list of selected feminine names derived from various gentes. My article ("Baby Girl Names from Ancient Rome") appears as the Nameberry Blog entry for June 1st, 2009 (with a nice link to UNRV). So, for those here also interested in names and naming... Enjoy! http://nameberry.com/blog/2009/06/01/baby-...m-ancient-rome/ -- Nephele

I agree with you that "implacable" would have been a better choice. I often find terms used in pre-20th century texts that seem awkward. Unfortunately, our 19th century translators Church and Brodribb are long dead and gone, and incapable of benefiting from your editorial expertise, Formosus. If it was so plain that torture is ineffective, then why do you suppose it was employed for so many centuries? I'm not making a case for torture here -- I, too, don't believe that torture is effective in getting the tortured to tell you anything other than what the tortured believes you want to hear. Nevertheless, there are still many people today (as in the past) who think otherwise. I'm not just talking about people in the government or military, either. There are an awful lot of Jack Bauer fans to be found in the living rooms of John Q. Public and Family. -- Nephele

The link I provided is to the same English Church & Brodribb translation (the translation that I'm familiar with when accessing Tacitus online) and honestly, Formosus, I didn't find that bit misleading. I did get the impression (that I described above) from that same translation. I'm not sure I agree with you about the Romans being "as aware as anybody that evidence given under torture is not very reliable." That seems a modern concept, to me. It seems that the torture of slaves in court cases was fairly common. In fact, it's my understanding that quite often the torture of slaves for testimony was required by a Roman court of law. The testimony of a slave otherwise wasn't considered reliable, unless given under torture. Which, again, explains why the judges in Piso's case were so "merciless" -- because they were so unmovably intent on seeing Piso convicted, that they were unwilling to pursue the customary avenue of gathering any evidence (from his slaves) that might aid in Piso's acquittal. I should think that if the slave didn't show a reasonably expected amount of loyalty to his master, there might be worse tortures awaiting him after the court case, regardless of whether his master was convicted or acquitted. I believe the Romans were harsh with slaves who betrayed their masters, regardless of who those masters might have been. -- Nephele

I think the judges' mercilessness, in this case, was directed towards the defendant -- Piso -- and not the slaves. In that the judges were unwilling to accept the defendant's offer to have the slaves tortured for evidence that might possibly support his case. But here is a link to the original Latin (with English translation), if anyone here would care to do his or her own translation: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a03010.htm -- Nephele

Topics that focus on cat pee odor. -- Nephele