Augustus Caesar

Thanks for the comments re the job Aurelia. Hopefully something will turn up soon ay? Who knows.... As for helping with the organisation of the meeting then feel free to join in anywhere really. All suggestions will be looked at and maybe you will control that aspect you suggest. NN will help out I am sure and maybe others may yet find this thread and join in too. I'll try and get some info soon but my job search is important so if delays are noted just jump in with ideas etc... I am not here to organise this one fully but only to steer those along after I did the Wall meet last year. The more ideas the better the meet will be.

I have to agree with most of Augusta's post here but where I differ in a small way is that I thought Brian Blessed as Augustus was brilliant. I accept he can be the same in a lot of his characters but this portrayal was as Augusta said played with the material he had at his disposal. Some of his scenes were electrifying and although he portrayed Augustus with a 'soft' side does it really matter? None of us were there to see the real guy in action so supposition of his character cannot be measured to any real degree of accuracy. Yes, I know, historians have chronicled is life and character to death but that doesn't mean THEY knew him either. Anyway, the wet and somewhat offensive 'acting' by the other guy in Rome (the young lad whose name slips my mind - sorry!!) left a lot to be desired and made me cringe at times. It left me thinking if the dramas about Rome need doing then the Brits (sorry guys) are best at it.

It looks like St Albans then NN. I'm sorry too that Augusta cannot make it and if Caldrail does then it looks like a few of the original team will make it at least. However, I would have to look at my own financial situation as I was made redundant last week and am currently looking for work in IT where most of my strengths lie. Even if that does not come off I may still be able to make it depending upon costs etc. I think the main thing is to sort accommodation for about a dozen members so we are well covered. The cost here should be as low as possible to make it justifiable for everyone. Anyway, I will leave that to you NN unless you wish to draw up an itinerary instead with as little travelling as possible. Come back to me with a PM to see how you want to handle it all. I think September is best all round but if most folk choose August then fine. Over to you....

The idea is to go with the majority in most cases so if September is too late or awkward then the summer holiday period may just be better for some. There is really no strict timescale or any rule/s bar that everyone who turns up should get on with each other and that fun is the main topic after the obvious Roman learning. So feel free to pass on ideas etc. We really need someone to grab the bull by the horns now to get this going properly. Again a volunteer or two are required to get this down to some detail. Any takers? St Albans looks good to me as has been stated that it is very easy to get to from London. Personally I would probably go there first frm Newcastle and then on to St Albans so I would pass it initially on the way down but that is not a great worry. So far only Northern Neil and WotWotius from our original army in York has said they may get there. What about the others? The Augusta, Pertinax, Caldrail, Andrew...

Verulamium sounds interesting! It's right next to St Albans, right? I would assume that accommodation in St Albans is cheaper than in Bath. What price range are we looking at? I could look up a few options on the internet. Here's a link that will show you the Roman town of St Albans where there seems to be plenty to see. This might just be a brilliant choice of venue so thanks to Northern Neil for this one. Aurelia has suggested it may be cheaper than Bath!!! Great if it is!! That'll suit me... and others too I would think because of the credit crunch etc. Anyway, NN, how would you like to organise this one for around early September when the schoolies are back? If I do a little research on this too I may come up with some ideas so we could even work on this together. I know I said I would prefer someone else to do this but if no volunteers come forward we must try something else. Verulamium - St Albans Use this link to find info on the town and to the left of the page (obviously when you get there!!) you will find links to other sites in the local area - museum etc... I will see if I can come up with a nice hotel or b&b maybe in the next day or so - keep watching.

AC, I hope you smote your fist a mighty blow! Seriously, hope you're okay. Please don't engage your fist in battle anymore. -- Nephele Being the mighty AC I was able to negotiate that shot with a deft 'duck and dive'. However, my good lady, Livia, has barred me from the kitchen so it won't be a prob in future. (Great way of getting out of dishes duty!!) Oh, and the fist? It got its knuckles wrapped!!!!!!!!!

Hi Maladict and Aurelia April would be way too soon I feel as many folk would need to organise time from work and their finances etc. The best time from now would probably be around August or even September, favouring the latter for the schools to be back. Bath would be ideal as a whole day can be spent in the baths quite easily. However, not much else Roman may be around but that is not a major issue s the second day can be talks etc. Still, this is up to the eventual organiser. Places to stay? Bath is expensive and Bristol is the nearest city so thought needs to be given here. Over to you.....

I'm in my own personal little battle right now - met my fist while walking into the kitchen earlier!! I think as an observer I would like to have visited the battle of Augustus and Anthony and maybe even watched the faces of the troops as Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon and marched on Rome. Would it have been excitement or trepidation? After all no-one had done that for many a year! There are so many battles to choose from and I have had difficulty picking any out so will leave it at that.

All hail to our enlightened leader... Happy B'day PP and lay off the wine!!! Oh all right then... keep sinking 'em!!

Hi Aurelia If this gets off the ground then that would be excellent but time is catching us all up fast with this one. I have no idea who wants to organise something as I did the last one on Hadrian's Wall and it was felt at the first meet in 2007 that we should have one nearer the south for 2009. That is why I asked if anyone else would be interested in organising this meet as I know little of Roman sites in the south as I have not visited any really. So, unless anyone comes forward..... Maybe WotWotius could give a lending hand to this as he seems to know a few sites down there near the south coast or wherever? Let's have some volunteers....

A quick addendum to the post I made at the start of this thread... the meets have been at the weekend anyway so far with a meeting up of the 'crew' around dinnertime Friday, visits to sites in the afternoon if possible, site visit and talks etc on Saturday, pub Saturday evening, Sunday would be a brief visit or whatever to a local site and then we all head home. That's it in a nutshell but it is not rigid by any means. Transport will be a consideration for those with no cars. Of course the venue chosen needs to be thought about carefully with this in mind. Car drivers may be available to ferry folk around but this should only be used if plenty cars are available for everyone to fit in. Hope this helps....

OK - here we are again at the end of another year. A year that saw our second meet between members of this illustrious forum. While numbers were down from our first meet there was no difference in their success. Both have been exciting, interesting and on a personal front for each member a learning curve. So, with all that and more in mind we come to the decision of whether to form a third meet in England and of course facing the daunting choice of picking an area to visit that will hold interest and appeal for two days. Amenities and places to stay are also important to consider but these can be chosen when a shortlist is drawn up of possible venues. Now I know it may not be a wise choice sometimes to go somewhere twice but Hadrian's Wall could be considered again if more members were to come along this time. So don't count it out. However, as I have done that organising bit I feel I should bow out of the vote for that one this time round but will organise it gladly should you all wish. Time is pretty short for this one to be organised but it can be done quite easily with a bit of thought and consideration. So it is over to you lot now... just one more thing when choosing somewhere... keep it simple and inexpensive. Bare in mind that we all have different levels of interest in Roman History and the venue should appeal to all as much as possible. We also need to consider our friends over either side of the pond who may wish to try and get over here this coming year. Off you go then.....

Hadrian did actually get as far north as the proposed Wall area and that is why the area chosen was to his obvious liking. He no doubt had advisors too who would give the dimensions such as the length of the Wall, thickness, height and costs too. To answer a question that has come up since my last post I do not know of the economic impact the Wall etc had on Rome to be precise and do not wish to second guess that estimate. I will endeavour to write to David Breeze and ask his advice. Depending upon his reply I will post here what is said.

Well then, let's give this one a crack and see if I can persuade most of you that what has been written so far is correct in only certain areas but mostly incorrect. Reasoning? Well, having lived only a few yards from the Wall in Segedunum (Wallsend) for twenty years and prior to that only a mile or so away in Newcastle for the other twenty six years of my being and having studied the Wall for some time I feel I can put a lot of what has been said above to rest. By that, I do not mean to disrespect any of your words by any means but I simply need to give what is regarded today as the main set of theories and fact for the Wall, Vallum and their surrounds. Where do I get my information? Well, none other than David Breeze himself whom I have met several times and the likes of Paul Bidwell, Bill Griffiths, Alex Croomb and more... all leading authoities on the Wall. The latter three being leading figures in Tyne and Wear Museums and are curently deeply involved in anything along the Wall except maybe Vindolanda which is run by the Vindolanda Trust. However, some input is given even there. OK, to start I shall try and put things in a nutshell without being over technical or over indulgent in my explanations. Feel free to discuss or question my views but I do not give information that is not backed up in some official way. There is, firstly, no need to do that and, secondly, there is no point. Before the Wall was built or even commissioned there was a boundary of sorts in Northern England called the Stanegate. The name is medieval and the true Roman name is not clear although the latter is thought to have been a derivitive of the Roman name. The Stanegate ran from Corbridge to Cumbria and although a boundary was defined it was not literally physical. It was merely a roadway used primarily for trade purposes and supplies for the troops etc. It worked well although Corbridge (Corstopitum) was attacked and destroyed on at least two occasions. Part of this Stanegate was Vindolanda and other forts aligned along its length. However, when Hadrian came to power he wanted a more defined set of boundaries that were natural if possible. He drew these boundaries up all along the Empire even through Gaul, Germania and Africa for example. The Gaulish and Germanian boundaries were mostly turf and timber because it was ready to hand and the threat from the north not considered too strong. However, in England, it was a different ball game... Hadrian made a famous trip to England and decided to place the northern boundary of the Empire further north than the Stanegate. His reasoning for this was simple. Where the Stanegate was he could see no natural defensive area at all and saw many open areas where attack could not be repelled quickly or where the barbarians en-masse could easily and quickly destroy forts etc. He moved the defences north where natural hills and rivers along a similar line to that of the Stanegate made worthy defence lines. The Wall began its life in Pons Aelius (Newcastle) in 122AD (hence the number of the Hadrian's Wall Bus Service) and spread west through Condercum (Benwell) and on to the west in Bowness on Solway. Milecastles and turrets were built along its path as well as the forts. Some forts touched the Walls edge, some had their northern area protrude the Wall and others didn't quite touch the Wall at all. This was down to room for building etc. Modifications were made along the way as time went by and, if you were to come to modern day and build something new there are always modifications that change the design of your building. The Wall and other Roman structures were no different. Three years after the start of the Wall it was decided to extend it to the east by three miles. This was to Segedunum. The reason for that was simple too. Although at first the River Tyne was considered barrier enough to the soldiers there was no clear view from Pons Aelius (Newcastle) to Arbeia (South Shields), which was a supply base to the legions etc on the Wall, and something needed doing about that. Segedunum was constructed thus affording that clear view. Now that the Wall was being built the Stanegate retained its status of a supply route and thus roads built to the east. These were not very good and the Vindolanda tablets show soldiers and merchants complaining of their poor quality!! The Wall was meant to have been built in its entirety of stone but along the way it was reduced from a wide gauge to a narrower gauge and this was from TEN feet to EIGHT feet thick as opposed the eight and six mentioned above. The height has been estimated to fifteen feet by the venerable Bede who saw it at it's best before robbers and natural erosion saw its demise. The Wall was NEVER built of turf in the eastern half of the country and only west of Birdoswald did this happen and some parts of the Wall were even then reconstructed in stone as it was considered more stable. The other reason, more importantly, was that the west was considered less of a threat to the Wall and its troops. So why waste resources and build in stone? As far as getting stone from afar to build the Wall and thus changing the reason to build in turf instead is concerned... well, the stone was ready to hand! There was plenty of it too. You can still see to this day some stones on the cliffs and mostly quarries where legionaries tool marks survive and some markings from the legions saying who was doing the cutting! So with all that clarified we come to the Vallum... The Vallum and the northern ditches were constructed after the Wall and forts were built. The Vallum was built to the south in order to protect the soldiers on the Wall as this area was classified as just as dangerous to the troops as the north was. It helped control several things as well as the threat of attacks. It controlled trade as the Romans would collect taxes from those who wished to come through the Wall from either side and sell or buy goods. They would be required to approach the Wall from designated areas and if that Vallum was not there they could get to the Wall along its virtual full length thus making it harder to control. The Vallum was filled in in certain areas where it was deemed unnecessary and this was also to control trade etc. The idea of causeways across the Vallum is still unproven and controversial. Certainly there were gateways and the best one to see today is at Benwell just three miles to the west of Newcastle. The area between the Wall and Vallum was not an area openly accessible to anyone except when crossing through. The Vallum is not filled in along its length as is proposed by some 'historians' and this is proven by visiting any amount of places along its entirety today. There are some parts of the Vallum that were filled in purely because it is too close to the fort it straddles. It was not constructed to a fixed distance from the Wall along its length as this would prove impossible with the terrain available. The northern ditches were purley defensive and for obvious reasons do not cover the whole length of the Wall. Why place a ditch where a natural cliff face protects you or even a lake as at Shaftoe Crags? It was metioned above that the northen ditches were a form of barbed wire. Incorrect as they were two different types of defences. The dithces were ditches and the Roman equivalent of our barbed wire was thus... Several posts were sunk into the ground at heights of about three to four feet and five or six rows in depth. These wre placed at 45 degree angles to each other and wrapped in strong thorn bushes which when ran into would cut you to pieces. There were also wooden spikes driven into the ground at a 45 degree angle which were sharpened to a point and naturally one would not wish to fall on those at a run! These defences have been found only in the east so far at Segedunum, Benwell and a couple more areas including Newcastle. The Vallum and the Wall were not entirely abandoned upon the troops movement north to the Antonine Wall. This would have been a mistake. Some forts were still manned although with skeleton forces. The Stanegate was still used to supply troops along Wall and to the north at the Antonine Wall. The supply fort was still Arbeia and from its two granaries at its conception and use for several years it needed to increase in size and thus the fort was redesigned. The Commanding Officer's House was moved to accommodate up to sixteen (at the current count) granaries and extra barracks too. This is clearly seen today as excavations are ongoing with the help of the volunteers from the USA etc through the Earth Watch (Earthwatch? my memory eludes as to the speling here!) group. The Vallum remained as was as did the Wall which saw one or two parts fall to ruin almost. Upon reoccupation of the Wall some twenty years later it was rebuilt and fully reoccupied. As for the credence of author's works on the Wall you cannot do any better than buy the following book by David Breeze and Brian Dobson... Hadrian's Wall which was released in 2000 in its fourth edition. ISBN 0-14-027182-1 and priced at

Great quiz Calders and quite unexpected!! I scored a creditable six beacause I can cross my legs like Charles and because I still think you scored FOUR at "Shut the Box"!!!!! Very entertaining - let's see who else is brave enough to try it eh???

Nephele, I will try and dig out some details on this and would join in the chat on that thread if I can find anything relevant. It shouldn't be too difficult so keep an eye open for that one. Thanks for bringing this up, Asclepiades! I had started this topic: The Inner Moat of Hadrian's Wall: Logical Need -- or Foolish Excess?, because I had read in the cited book that the inner moat to Hadrian's wall had been filled in a short time after the construction of the wall. But, Augustus Caesar, you're saying that this moat was actually filled in centuries later? I'd be interested in reading more about this, if you have additional information. Would you like to post to the above referenced thread? -- Nephele

Caldrail has captured here in words what I tried to give each person during the three day event. I attempted to show what little there was at some points to see in areas subsequently built upon. From there the task was to build up a picture slowly of just what it was that the Roman soldiers had to endure... the distant hills rolling off as far as the eye could see giving the impression of loneliness for the legionary or civilian settled outside the fort, the stark reality of which sinks in all too easy for the average visitor who doesn't actually realise that a lot of Hadrian's Wall would be buzzing with activity like trade, troop exercises, folk doing their normal daily routine of visiting friends at nearby camps situated on the edge of the forts etc. The realisation that this would be a busy place does eventually get to one's notice and if the order of your visit to the Wall is done in specific order then you can appreciate all Caldrail has stated. To finish the Meet at Arbeia (South Shileds) was quite deliberate in that it showed the standard of living for the commander and his wife and family to the cramped living and sleeping quarters for the average soldier. It also finally puts into place in one's mind that there was more than just soldiery going on in the north of England. Not much in the way of battles happenedon or around the Wall itself and no evidence of this has yet been found. So, something else must have been going on and hopefully I have given the members on the Meet this year a great insight to this. I didn't mention to anyone the purpose of the order of the visits, nor did I give any clue at the end of the Meet. I merely allow those who attended to make their own minds up. After all, why give my impression of the Wall and its surrounds when the magic is unique to the individual visitor in their own way? Yes I pointed out different things along the way and answered questions to the best of my knowledge which surprised me as sometimes one has to dig deep for the answers! But alas I do hope I left each member with the feeling that they would want to come back and do it all again. If members who did not make it this time can cme along another year I will gladly follow this up and recreate the whole tour and maybe throw in an extra or two... who knows. That is for the members to ask for. So, thank you Caldrail for your report. Members will appreciate the feeling you have put forward here in your attempt to capture what the Wall and its surrounds are about for historical and educational purposes but also for the magical feeling for the modern visitor.

It was only in the later centuries that the Vallum was filled in and only in certain areas as it wasn't thought essential to the cause. The majority of the Vallum remained in use and quite a lot of it is still visible today, though by no means at its full depth. I can dig out data of where the fills occurred if that is what is required but that may take some research although I would be reasonably confident of geeting pretty exact information. Where was this thread btw? I would be interested in having a read through it.

I have now uploaded several of the best photographs I took at the UK UNRV Meet at Hadrian's Wall and I appear on one only. Now while that's a good thing it is fair for you all to see me in my 'glory'. The picture concerned was taken by my good lady Hadriana at the Temple of Mithras in Condercum (Benwell) just three miles from the first fort on the Wall. This being the second. The pictures are located in the public galleries under UK Meet 2008 Hadrian's Wall. I hope you all enjoy them... please feel free to comment or ask questions about them.

Hi falkor For a good description on bath houses use my link below to my own site about Hadrian's Wall (soon to be re-written and completed) and on Wall Forts menu click Segedunum. On the right of the menu bar another link appears for Segedunum. Hover on that until a drop down link for baths appears. Click on that and get a full description of the bath house at Segedunum with links for each room contained within with plenty photographs to boot. Visit My Hadrian's Wall Website I hope that helps you falkor at least to some extent.

Hi Nephele Thank you for the comments. One never knows how a tale of the nature I described will be taken but alas I need not have feared. Your question raises a good point. The stones would have been covered over natural time by earth and the fact that the fort and its surrounds were on higher ground would make farming it difficult. However, the Victorians used this very stone to build their walls in the park as I mentioned but as for the local householders - well, no they would not have gotten near it. The houses were built after the area received protection and the park removed so any stone used by them would be brought in from elsewhere. A careful eye would have been kept on the builders of these homes too as the site was well recorded and any missing stone would be easily noticed in the surrounding gardens. The park was built and then removed to make way for the houses which should clarify any doubts about what happened and in what order. The crossing was protected by law and the natural width of what is on view allowed the more modern Victorian era to show as well. Maybe this was to show just what distruction the Victorians did along the Wall. They were more interested in the gentry living it up than historical sites being looked after because they simply did not see their worth. While some parts of the Wall were preserved quite a lot was more than destroyed making it physically impossible to know what the context of the Wall is like in certain parts. Segedunum, whilst being the most excavated fort in the Roman world, in Wallsend where I live, is a superb example of destruction by the Victorians. The vast majority of the foundation stones of the fort have been removed when they built Simpson's Hotel for down and outs. When that was pulled down terraced houses were then placed along Buddle Street (the name of the road that runs straight through the fort in modern times) and these were demolished ready for the millenium year when the fort was fully excavated and a museum and reconstructed and fully working bath house built. When the excavations were being dug only then did the full extent of Victorian destruction come to full notice as well as how much was taken for building Tynemouth Priory etc. I hope that has helped Nephele...

Hadrian's Wall Meet 2008 Augustus Caesar's Discussion... a very brief overview The following are a collection of notes used to give my talk on the Wall etc and were used merely to guide my way through the discussion. If you have questions about this or anything else feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer you. The Wall... built as a new frontier to keep out the barbarians to the north it replaced the old frontier that was the Stanegate. The history of the Stanegate is in itself a fascinating one...

Hadrian's Wall Meet 2008 DAY THREE - Sunday, 27th July The Sunday saw a slightly more relaxed day although we still had several sites to visit. An early start saw us meet at the Central Station in Newcastle, where Augusta left her luggage for later travel, in order to get a regular bus service to one of the sites along the Wall not visited that often but well preserved. The sites are just to the south of Condercum Fort (Benwell), the second fort on the east of the Wall. We visited the Temple of Mithras which sits within a housing area and although the altars are reconstructed the walls are original. The site is small and one can spend as little as ten minutes there or more if a keen interest is felt. While we took photographs and chatted about the site we decided to make an offering of our own to Mithras and we said a few words of significance. We left the site to walk a short distance to the next one which again lies in a housing area but is exceptionally well looked after. This site is the Vallum crossing and is spectacular to look at. Considering that it is the best preserved crossing point along the Wall I am disappointed it doesn

Hadrian's Wall Meet 2008 DAY TWO - Saturday, 26th July Hadriana and I embarked on a chariot of a smaller nature to those of the national kind (this was our local Metro) and gathered our troops from the barracks for a day

Hadrian's Wall Meet 2008 Attendees: Augustus Caesar, Hadriana, Augusta, Charles and Caldrail DAY ONE - Friday, 25th July York, England, April 2007 from mid-day Friday 13th to mid-day Sunday 15th... seven of our members plus three partners got together for a meeting to discuss all things Roman. This was the first time any of us had met and so the potential to be strangers was on the cards from the kick off. However, as the meeting up of each other progressed it was clear that was never going to happen. We all got on very well even though personalities were different. That didn