spittle

Koh Samui, Thailand. Chrismas Eve 1993. A small group of long term Thai visiters (myself included) decided to copy Animal House (Belushi et al 1985) and welcome Chrismas in by having a Toga Party. We wrap bedsheets, curtains, sari's, sarongs, whatever around ourselves and head to the local nightclub. Not long after arriving we are confronted by a large group of angry locals. "You make fun Buddha! You no monk, you take off...etc" After ten minutes trying to explain Toga's to people who had no idea who the Romans were or what ancient Europeans had to do with American college movies we all ended up with our 'Toga's' wrapped around our waistes, like giant nappies (diapers). TOGA, TOGA, TOGA!

When an author starts guessing the thoughts and conversations of long dead soldiers (who lived and died anonymously anyway!) I always think that they are adding filler, being unoriginal and less than scholarly. As Holland, Goldworthy and countless others have demonstrated it is possible to write factual history without resorting to the cheap tricks of the fiction author or create a book with all the dynamic tension of a dictionary. Factual need not be stuffy but, imho, invented conversations and fictional guesswork have no place in a factual history book. However I am interested to learn whether Tiggellinus (sp?) the head of Nero's Praetorian Guard gets mentioned. the recent BBC docudrama's may have been poor but they did leave me with a curiosity regarding this bloke.

During a Senate meeting concerning the Catiline conspiracy Caesar was handed a note. Cato demanded he read it aloud. Caesar declined. Cato became more demanding (sensing he had Caesar on the ropes?) so Caesar passed him the note. It was a love letter from Cato's half sister Servilia. Cato, visilbly angry, called Caesar a drunk. I want to preface this by stating that I think HBO's Rome is the best thing on television. Its one of the three television series that I anticipate with genuine excitement (Soprano's and Deadwood are the other two) and finding mistakes/suggesting better ways to make the show is not intended to rubbish it but to encourage debate. I mention the above Caesar and Cato in the Senate anecdote because, imho, the REAL relationships (Caesar's mistress is Servilia. Servilia's brother is Cato. Cato is Caesars Senate nemesis. Brutus is Servilia's son/Cato's nephew/Caesars unofficially adopted son. Pompey is Caesars son-in-law. Pompey had Brutus' father executed. Pompey and Brutuis are allies against Caesar.....) are far more fascinating than the fictional lesbian relationship, the made up husband Glabius or anything a screen writer could imagine. The dynamic of this group must have been electric! Far superior facts to any fictional creations. Did Brutus' wife kill herself by eating hot coals when she learned of Brutus' suicide? Was she Cato's daughter?

"....no military doscipline or organisation..."? Some may dispute the above statement, afterall, the group he led defeated enough legions to necessitate the Senate giving rare power to Crassus and calling on the return of Pompey and Lucullus from abroad. 'A slave could own a slave'? You know you've hit rock bottom when your owned by a slave! Unless you can own one yourself.

While your reading your Mayflower book keep an eye out for any mention of the passenger Francis Cooke. He was the ancestor of James Butler Hickok (Wild Bill Hickok) according to 'The Real Deadwood' but I'm dubious about the claim.

Instead of re-reading Cornell why not try Gary Forsythe's 'A Critical History of Early Rome'. Much of it is devoted to questioning the theories put forward in 'The Beginnings of Rome' and the decade worth of archaeological evidence (Forsythe was published ten years after Cornell) have thrown a litle more light on the subject. I have both books but tend to use them for reference/additional reading.

"Today some scholars managed...." Could you direct me to your source/s then I can read how these names/dates have been arrived at. (From my memory) the usual story lists only seven kings, the fifth and last both being called Tarquin. The facts are rare and there is as much myth as history in the accounts I have read. All of the seven kings had very long reigns, which is another indication of the inaccuracy of this version of early Roman monarchy. Although seven successive kings could have each had very long terms, it is highly improbable and suggests myth rather than fact. That is why I am interested in looking a little deeper into the subject of your new thread .

Also, Octavia is seen feeding species of parrot that will mot be known to Europeans for 1500 years and 1800 years. I know its less dramatic than lesbianism and murdered husbands but I keep parrots so I noticed this mistake instantly.

So, around the time of 50BC, Rome did not have a complete monopoly on the wine trade and vineyards existed further west than Italy? Truffles are mentioned on more than the one occasion we have discussed. In ep5 Erastes Fulman hires Vorenus to try and force a Hindu merchant to pay for '50 trufffle pigs'. Were truffles already a luxury food item by this time or have the programme makers used a modern idea to help a story flow? Phil. When I mention the '..worse than the Gracchi, Marius or Cincinnatus [Antony]' mistake I only regarded the Cincinnatus part as mistaken. I fully understand the relevance of the Gracchi and Marius in the context of Vorenus' outburst. Just not the inclusion of Cincinnatus.

I don't know, Phil. I'm a little sceptical about your view on this. The Vorenus dialogue about Antony being worse than 'The Gracchi, Marius or Cincinnatis' was another line that made no sense. I'd agree that wine and truffle's are very much the stereotype of modern France but that does nothing to lessen my view of these being, essentially, mistakes in the context they are presented.

In the beginning of the film, when Spartacus is working in the salt quarry and bites a guard who strikes him for helping an exhausted fellow slave, the narration states that he 'dreamed of a time when slavery no longer existed'. Was their any anti-slavery movement anywhere, in thought or deed, prior to the last few centuries? Or would the slaves of that time have dreamed of owning their own slaves?

Scene setter. Antony sends the dwarf to summon Vorenus and offers him a promotion and 'a ten thousand denarii signing bonus'. Vorenus declines and says he intends to start a business. "What business do you plan on starting" says Antony "Importing from Gaul" answers Vorenus. Antony- "Importing what?" Vorenus- "Slaves, truffles, wine...That sort of thing" "Your going to be a grocer!" Guffaws Antony. My attention was caught by the 'importing wine' FROM Gaul to Rome (in 50BC). Around this time the Gauls were exchanging one slave for a single amphora of Roman wine. So wouldn't importing wine from Gaul be like smuggling heroin INTO Afghanistan in our time?

M J Trow's book 'Spartacus' caught my attention but the Amazon reviews state that the title is quite misleading and, rather than a biography of Spartacus, it is another look at the late republic. One that does not match other books on the era such as Holland's Rubicon. However the review does gives the author credit for even attempting a biography of Spartacus due to the available facts being very scarce. When one considers the mix of escaped slaves, brigands and general outsiders that made up the group under Spartacus full credit must be given to his abilities as a leader of men. Under different circumstances he could have been another Hannibal, Alexander or Caesar. He was obviously more of a leader than a follower, which could explain him deserting the army.

The Gladiat (I think thats what they call those devastating little swords) is regarded by experts as the most efficient sword ever. I have also heard it called a 'Spanish Short Sword'. Is this because it was originally used by a Spanish tribe? When did the Romans 'lend' the idea?

The skull balancing on a butterfly on a wheel mosaic is fantastic! I believe it was one of discoveries found when Pompei was rediscovered. It would make an excellent backpiece tattoo. Its the inside picture on the DVD boxset which has the best packaging of any boxset (or single DVD) I have ever seen. The disc's are in a normal package that unfolds but then this is placed inside of a cigar box type case. A thin cardboard outercase completes the item. Very good effort from the graphic design team. Best yet from anyone!

I'm going to buy the Cunliffe book. Thanks for all the suggestions. Unfortunately I cannot access the above Pytheas link. 'JSTOR' due to my location 'off campus'? From GOLDWORTHY. "Commius, the man who acted as Caesars envoy in Britain, was made king of his own tribe the Atrebates and also given overlordship of Menapii" Anyone know anything about this person? Caesar increased his power BUT he already had existing authority within tribes on both sides of the channel.

In response to the idea that Caesar massacred the celts and left Gaul a 'desert' I would like to quote Goldworthy. "...It was also important that Roman expansion outside Italy was not was not a question of eradicating the indigenious population and replacing them with Roman colonists, or even of imposing a Roman elite who would exploit a subject population. For all the massacres and mass enslavements that accompanied Roman imperialism, the province of Gaul that Caesar created would be lived in by the tribes who were there when he had arrived. In most day-to-day affairs they would be ruled by leaders drawn from the existing aristocracy. A permanent conquest relied on persuading the tribes and their leaders that it was more in their interest to accept Roman rule than to oppose it." "....His initial interventions in Gaul all came in response to appeals from allied tribes..."

"If you look at the index to STRABO you will find a good deal about Pytheas" Exactly what do you mean by the 'index to Strabo'? Edited for information added below. Barry Cunliffe's book is titled "The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek" and is less than

Some tribes had chief's with power on both sides of the water so a stable and regular connection between Gaul and Britain certainly existed. I'd imagine that a handful of Roman (or Romanized tribe members) merchants had visited Britain. The fact that news of Caesars intended journey had reached the Brits in time for them to gather together a resistance force shows that the channel was as much a pathway as a barrier. As for Caesars writings showing him in the most favourable light, What would one expect from a politician? Spin (the latest name for this practise) is human nature. PYTHEAS OF MASSALIA? I would be very interested in reading his writings or anything concerning British connection/information with the Mediterean civilisations prior to Claudius colonizing the island. Where can I find more about Pytheas?

Its not on the opening credits but I watched the episode where pompey's thugs are bombarding Attia's house and they are making suicide arrangements inside. Then the mob just leaves. When the 'Horse Jew' looks outside their is graffiti on the door. The audio commentary states that this says "Attia sleeps with everybody"

What irf Caesar was telling the truth about the info (or lack of) he recieved from the gallic merchants? He was asking for help from a newly dominated people that could have taken away their monopoly on trade with Britain (or a least a tint corner of the south of England) and put the Romans in charge of another area of their lives. Under those conditions I think I would have played dumb. "Britannia? Never heard of it."

Ronald Symes Roman Papers are supposed to be prosopography studies. I asked on a previous thread about these books and it was the first time I had ever actually heard of Prosopography but thats what I was told Syme wrote about. Its under Colliseum, Libra, 'Roman Papers by Syme'. If. as i suspect. you are well aware of Syme but he neglected your specific area, soryy to have waisted your time.

can you wait a few weeks to discuss it? I'm buying it with my next paycheck. I haven't seen it yet! It will have to be some fantastic television to even approach the excellence of The Caesars, a set of four programmes that are hardly known outside this forum and, i suspect, little known within it! This 300 minutes of black and white telly (from a time when budgets were a fraction of todays) has left me with a fascination for all things Tiberius, a love for all things Claudius, a hatred for all things Caligula and a grudging respect for all things Sejanus. I, Claudius is being repeated on one of the freeview channels (Thursday nights) but I missed the first four episodes and want to watch it from the beginning.

Is the book 'Livia: First Lady of Rome' factual history or historic fiction? My name is Paul Spittle. Please feel free to call me Paul.

How many wonderful battle scenes have you seen on other films/shows? LOADS. How many Roman 'TRIUMPHS' have you seen like Caesars on HBO's Rome? None? I think they have proritised the spending of 100 million dollars (approx) in an original and relevant way. As for Hines being 'constipated'! I could not disagree with you more. He is the essence of Caesar IMHO and the chemistry between himself and james Purefoy (Mark Antony) is just fantastic. In series 2 I imagine Octavian will kill Caesars child to Cleopatra when he finds it is Pullo's bastard. Think about it. It will help soften the event. Feeling sympathy for childkillers is never easy and Octavian is one of the shows hero's. just a prediction.