Jasminia

Also, just a side note... the Pantheon is not across the street from Santa Maria Maggiore, it is across from Santa Maria sopra Minerva!!! This is where the confusion comes in!!! This is the church you meant, right? In front of it is an obelisk on top of an elephant. So, I probably have the right information about the Santa Maria Maggiore and the Magna Mater afterall... which makes sense because the Pantheon is built on what had been the Field of Mars, also the location of the Isis Temple I had mentioned. (*pats self on back*) Lupercus Of course, you're right. I meant Sta Maria sopra Minerva -- the gothic church with the Bernini elephant statue as base to the little obelisk (probably) from the temple of Isis on the Campus Martius. There's just way too many Sta Maria's in Rome to keep up with I also read in Italy that Sta. Maria Maggiore may have also been a site for a modest shrine to Isis as well. Sorry for the delay in responding -- grad school is slowly sucking out my soul

The medieval cathedral of Braga, in Portugal, which is dedicated to the Virgin, was built on top a temple of Isis. I know replies are late in coming, but better late than never, neh? It's shocking how many churches and cathedrals dedicated to the Virgin are built atop previous temples to Isis in Rome. The most glaring example of this is Santa Maria Maggiore (the only Gothic cathedral in Rome), which is across the street from the Pantheon. The Iseum Campense is underneath that and quite a bit of surrounding (modern) blocks. 4 of the 8 ancient Egyptian obelisks (of Egyptian antiquity, not Roman remakes) that stand in Rome today used to adorn this Iseum. Also, an Italian book suggested that even the Duomo in Siena was built on top of a temple or shrine to Isis. Jasmine, she who has emerged from the other side of the Atlantic with her verb in her mouth

Though I'd revitalize this thread because I have recently successfully defended my thesis entitled "Roman Isis and the Pendulum of Religious Tolerance in the Empire". Posted for your enjoyment at http://www.jazzhaven.com/thesis/ Ciao ciao tutti!

Both the Lares and Penates were hearth spirits/gods in charge of the care and safety of the hearth and home. I remember reading that the tradition of carrying around Penates was probably derived from the Aeneid, where Aeneas was bringing the Trojan gods into Latium (dum conderet urbem inferretque deos Latio). True, an invented history, but one the Roman adhered to nonetheless. Carrying your gods while traveling on precarious journeys was like carrying around little pieces of home and lent itself to feelings of security.

To add to Ursus... If you consider the Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire to be Roman, you can include Islam (7th-8th centuries). Generally, post-Constantine (with a very brief break during Julian the Apostate's reign), Christianity became quite aggressive in "wiping out" the "pagan" religions, particulary the traditional state religions. The more power the bishops and monks got, the less the government did. Julian the Apostate (4th century) also tried to do a number on Christianity resulting an a weakening of the Roman political machine. In his attempt to restore traditional religions and guarantee freedom of religion, he tried to separate church from the state at the level of the governing classes. Not sure of a "return" to the status quo matches your question, but it's an attempt to restore religious "supremacy" of tolerance.

My vote's for disembowelment. The English and Japanese did it -- I think the Dutch as well. Nothing like holding your own guts as you die to give you a moment of reflection for your actions. Ewww.

One possibility is that Pullo's parents were freed, making him a free-born citizen and able to serve in the military.

Slaves could be manumitted exclusively for the purpose of marrying (cf Pullo/Eirene), because citizens couldn't marry slaves. Jocasta's only claim to a higher marriage was her father, merchant of (that dreadful) Macedonia, and the wealth that came with. Despite being a citizen, she was penniless and "dishonored" by the brutes who killed her family. Not to mention a stoner and orgy-partaker. Prolly the best she could do. I'd be interested to see if Atia, machinatrix optima, tries to sever Jocasta's friendship with Octavia on the basis of being married to a freedman.

I'm still loving the show, even in all of its Forrest Gumpiness. Perhaps, because of it. Rome was much more than its celebrities, and celebrities are much more than the histories they make. This fictional/hypothetical take on the private lives of the people whose public lives and actions we study is bringing them to life for me in more ways than chronologies of their achievements has thus far. It's a truly guilty pleasure, and we can't deny the mental gymnastics it gives us and the knowledge we share when correcting the historical inaccuracies. The visual level of detail continues to amaze me, and the script ... Let's just say that I've gotten so much amusement at the startled faces of fellow classicists and friends (and even professors) when throwing around some of my favorite quotes at appropriate moments. Nothing seems to shock people more than a lady with a potty-mouth Needless to say, I will continue to wait expectantly for upcoming episodes, will buy the dvd when it comes out, and desperately hope that this isn't the last season.

"You are either a Wild Cat or a Fox personality. But you may also be a Swan personality. " Yep, that's me. All of the above

Vorena the Elder was making "the horns" -- it's a curse.

Thank you for the reference, Jasminia. I've been contemplating some research into Catholicism. You might start with Sts Thomas and Augustine. Or earlier, with Eusebius.

An excellent read on saint veneration in late antiquity is Peter Brown's "Cult of the Saints".

I agree with most of the posts made, but would like to add some things not yet mentioned. Coinage was not necessarily considered "art", so accurate depictions are less necessary. They can be considered political billboards due to their wide dissemination, representing power and influence. The stout neck, hooked nose, and her overall ghastly appearance on the coin can be seen to follow a pattern of the vision of power on Roman coins. Because depictions of power in Rome in the period (with the exceptions of gods of course) were of men, that may account in part for an undecidedly unappealing visage. Depicting Cleo with features often associated with other Roman men of power may also have been an intentional ploy to make her seem less foreign and more closely linked with Roman authority. I found an interesting quote: "In the Pens

Here's a short list of some of the books I most enjoyed: Imperial Rome and the Christian Triumph, by Jas Elsner On Roman Time: The Codex Calendar of 354, by Michele Renee Salzman The Politics of Latin Literature, by Thomas Habinek The Power of Images in the Age of Augustus, by Paul Zanker Religions of Rome (Vols 1&2), by Beard, North & Price The World of Late Antiquity, by Peter Brown Pompeii (fiction), by Robert Harris

If you looked carefully at next week's preview after the show, it doesn't look like Atia actually died from the poisoning.

If they use Athens as a model, they'll do exceedingly well. Those curious about Athens' metro construction alongside their archaeological excavations are welcome to read a paper I wrote about it last year.

They were collecting her bones presumably to be interred. Did anyone notice the close-up of the dangling things in Vorenus' courtyard entrance when Pullo emptied the chamberpot into the street (about 3 minutes into the episode)? They looked like charred bone pieces tied together at intervals on string, some pieces had hair wrapped around it, others, not. There were also drying/dried herbs hanging. I had to rewind that scene a bunch of times to figure out what those things might be. Could it be that some of these were Niobe's bone fragments? Perhaps as a ritual symbol of mourning?

So AGRIPPA is in it? Yes, he is, but hasn't made his appearance yet. Octavian's on his way to see him.

Its fairly clear we are heading towards a major split between Vorenus and Pullo. I was a touch surprised that Pullo did not join Octavian as he left the city, but I suppose it was important to build up the friction first.. Somehow I presume the presence of Vorenus' children in the camp of Octavian will eventually allow the two to reconcile though. It seemed to be clear last season that the buddies were going to wind up on opposite sides -- Pullo's building 'friendship' with Octavian and Vorenus' oath to Antonius. What makes me wonder is Pullo's potential role in the killing of Caesarion -- quite possibly his own son. I was also surprised to see Pullo not going with Octavian, but HBO probably saw fit to strengthen Pullo's and Vorenus' friendship first. Their role-reversal (the who is taking care of whom) will really serve to dramatize their eventual split. Vorenus' family can also serve as hostages. I'm interested to see which they go with. We're also reminded of Pullo's comment to Octavian that he'll be ready to serve 'when the time comes'. The forces are quietly mustering, and the time will come.

Redemption, salvation, or some form of immortality is a resonant theme with the mystery cults. For example, the Eleusinian, Orphic, Cybele and Isis mysteries (and later, Mithras), all had such notions. Though scholars pedantically argue about the (dis)similarities between the Christian and pagan conceptualizations, the bottom line is that the contemporary followers believed themselves to be saved in one way or another. The term 'redemption' is often used as a social as well as personal 'saving', which seems to be the case for Vorenus. His 'ascent' to overlord, thereby restoring leadership to the collegia and stabilizing the Aventine, redeems his actions which resulted in Caesar's assassination.

Well, those questions were answered last night [spoiler follows!] Apparently, Vorenus running about with Erastes' head was simply his return home. It was amusing that Mark Antony and Pullo made no indication of the stink when they arrived at Vorenus' house, being that there was a green decomposing head sitting there It will be interesting to see Vorenus' reaction -- the self-provlaimed child of Hades -- when his family turns up alive. Erastes didn't rape/kill them, but rather sold them into slavery. [They were in the slave cart riding up alongside Octavian on his way to Agrippa] The woman who was "collecting things she loaned" looked like one of the two women with whom Niobe was speaking with last season -- the ones who were miffed at how Niobe "would be glad to receive again" after she had scurried them off when Vorenus was returning home. I really liked the presentation of Antony's funeral speech at the brothel (although it bugged me at first). Apparently, HBO didn't think they could present it better than Shakespeare, so they gave a commoner's perspective.

Personally, I think that the decision of being a smoking vs. non-smoking establishment should be the decision of the restaurant/bar owner. Here in Fayetteville, AR, many smoke-free places were opening up without having been required by law to do so. In other words, people were already getting non-smoking choices before the government came in and removed choice from the owners of the establishments. Smokers choose their dining experiences based on the smoking situation at the restaurant -- why should nonsmokers not do the same? Just because nonsmokers wanted to eat at the smoking Thai restauarant instead of the smoke-free Thai restaurant does not give them the right to force all restaurants to the preferences of one group of people. This is yet another example of people not taking responsibility for their actions. This doesn't seem quite fair. but since it's apparently legislatable, here's some other things that ought to be banned: 1) driving for people over the age of 60 unless they pass annual driving competency tests 2) people with annoying laughs 3) excessive perfume/cologne use 4) complaining about cigarette butts if ashtrays fail to be provided 5) ignorance at a podium and most importantly ... 6) stupidity

Yes, monasteries existed before Christianity. The first Buddhist monastery was constructed in the 3rd century BCE in Sri Lanka [Source]. Others may have arisen further east. Since we know that communication and/or trade existed between the Indies and the Greco-Roman world (at least) since the time of Alexander, and between the near east and the indies before that, the concept of monasteries may have made their way west from the far east. As Ursus said, Isis temples (the earliest positivily-identified one in Rome dates to 1st century BCE) were very similar in structure and organization. Large temples, such as the ones at Pompeii and the Campus Martius, had scriptoria as well as schools geared toward the higher education of the priesthood.

Is it? Not to throw this conversation into a huge tangent, but it's called the Theory of Gravity, not the Law of Gravity. The nature of gravity is still being investigated by organizations such as NASA, Stanford, and UCSB, just to name a few. Like all concepts not yet called natural laws, there is still room for error, elaboration, and reconsideration. Very interesting. You're suggesting that Brown's theories can be wrong because the gospels may have inaccurately portrayed the historical Jesus. In that case, if the gospels are wrong, and we don't have access to what may be true or false, wouldn't it stand to reason that any theory could possibly be correct? Further, if they got the historical Jesus wrong, then it would beg one to ask what else they got wrong. That's a very dangerous argument you made. But remember what theory means. It relies on conjecture, propositions, and plain old guesses. That's an interesting theory.