Gaius Octavius

I came across an interesting article on wine at "Visions of Rome". It seems that in addition to adding honey to the wine, they cut it with water, 2:1 or 3:1 in favor of water. The Greeks seem to have been a little more generous with the water. I hope that I didn't get this wrong, but it seems that Falerno was a white wine that when stored for 20 years turned amber. The stuff I had was a 2002 vintage and was red! The original stuff was about 16% alcohol. (How did they find out?) Seems that the Romans and Greeks preferred their wine 'sweet'. Mulsum may not have been bilge water. Try this: (Sorry, I don't know how to get the link in yet.) http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encycl...na/sitemap.html

P.Pilus: As far as I am concerned (and as starter of this topic), let's make it a discussion of wine, ergo: If one is supposed to mix honey with Falerno, how about drinking Mulsum instead? That is if there is an equvalent today. Nothing like Sangria. Rioja, Spanish brandy and God knows what else. Went great with one of my favorite dishes, pulpo (octopus). I am sure that the Romans ate pulpo.

I don't wish to be obstinate and do admit that I can be wrong. Yet, keep in mind that one must purchase, feed, clothe and care for slaves. All these prices vary. One loses these costs with 'free' labor and gains a wage cost. This cost (for these menial jobs) has always been sufficient only to keep body and soul together. Very few freed slaves beame state ministers or capitalists. Raise the wage and PERHAPS free men will do the job. Profit or loss is not dependent on slavery or free labor. Many slave owners in the USA went bankrupt.

My dismissal of the Gracchan testimony is based on the fact that Gracchus could not have in fact determined from casual observation whether the spread of latifundia were responsible for poor conditions in the countryside. That's a claim that is simply outside the power of casual observation. How do we know how much support Tiberius had from the countryside? Most of Italy couldn't vote for Tiberius, so it's really impossible to know, isn't it? And what is the reason that Tiberius had any rural support? Because his economic analysis was correct (I think not); because his desire to extend the franchise to them was popular (I think so); both; or neither? The mere fact that Tiberius had some rural support in no way speaks definitively to his claims about land ownership--he could have been supported by Italians simply because they wanted real political rights. Casual observation! What else could be done? If one sees more people in rags one day than the day before, that's pretty good evidence. It's practical! I don't think that anyone, then, had a university statistical analysis of the matters. Tenancy does not equate to ownership. As has been stated elsewhere, 95% of the population were poor. And that point is not up for grabs. If we don't 'know', how can anyone conclude? Differing people often make odd bed fellows when it comes to some particular point. As for voting, then as now, it was fixed. If 'guessing' is to be used, maybe the bad boys had this in mind: If one doesn't have a direct interest in the nation, one won't fight for it.

Unfortunately, I ALMOST got my Bride a necklace, very much like the one shown, on the bridge over the river Arno in Florence. It had three colors of gold. Guess that they are still at it.

A.D. I like Ovid's style. I'll have to give it a go. Can't see how any eating gets done, yet, I think that it would be quite a (scientific) experiment for the entire board. The reports should be of great 'scientific' value. Well, that is if the morality police don't put the lot of us into irons (groan) Now I doubt Ovid was being entirely honest. Romans were very macho so a little manly boasting wasn't amiss. Actually I'm jealous. But then modern clothes and manners don't really allow for this do they? Or am I attending the wrong parties? Where there is smoke, there is fire. Good grief, man! Ever hear of a Toga party? Use your imagination. In lieu of that, there is a 'nude' restaurant in NYC.

Wasn't the Crimea a source of wheat for the Romans and Italians? Wasn't the city also a Roman outpost?

Oops, I didn't mean to be confusing, the chart is actually something I compiled. I just meant that Andrew Dalby and his related books (as Pertinax suggested) can probably provide better detail than I. ______________________________________________________________________________________ It's a great chart. Congratulations, Primus Pilus. I'm going to drive the local wine vendors nuts and myself into bankruptcy. I'll have to spell Mulsum properly in my quest.

Who are they?

Virgil, how could you? Four bucks for a nickel cup of coffee! No gold from me but, go Rev!

That's because Kerry's motician didn't do a good job. Busch is the only member of the family with that phony texass twang.

From the article, I think that you have a typo. You may have meant to say Carracalla not Geta. Anyway, it was a novel way for C. to buy the farm.

Gentlemen, come back. We need you! It's OK to be on two Forums.

1. My sedan that runs on wine. 2. My Roman books to find out who is telling lies. (Beware, M.P. Cato ) 3. Enough pills to keep me alive until age 100 and not one day longer. I'd like to take my barbarian Bride with me. Can we make it four?

I don't think that women were allowed much freedom in Greece. Would they have allowed a 'mere' woman to sing at their banquets? If I remember correctly, men played the parts of women in their dramas. I always thought that the actual fall of Troy was in one of those books. It wasn't in my Penguin or Collectors Library copies. It's in a book: "The War at Troy - What Homer Didn't Tell" by Quintus of Smyrna; Translated by F.M. Combellack. Why not in the Illiad? Where did Quintus get it from?

Ave M.P. Cato: Political Science! Indeed! Once again I surrender to your superior mental agility. Of course, you realize that this means war. Meet you at the Mulvian Bridge. You are making me take to whiskey. :2guns:

Thanks Primus Pilus! This site is a platinum mine! Mr. Dalby's chart will soon make its way around the world. I hope he will 'shed' a little more light on the matter. It's going to cost me a fortune now, as I give the stuff to my quacks. I would probably go for the Muslum as I prefer a burgandy imported from Naples, NEW YORK at 9 bucks a gallon or Lambrusco or Barberone. If any try Grappa, don't chug-a-lug it! I really think that the stuff is made from old toe nails.

On this particular Forum, there is a thread titled: "Pliny On The Efficacy Of Superstition". Some interesting practices there. One day I'll learn this computer stuff.

Must have been tough on the elbows. When on their stomachs, hope no one was under them! :wub:

Now I know why Italians and Spaniards say 'salute'(?) and 'salud'(?), after someone has sneezed. The 'tingling' in the ears is still in use and is true! I always know. Men still spit into their palms before using a shovel. Don't we spit on the ground to insult a person or show contempt for a place? This business of getting rid of a headache should be taken up. I know of lots of headaches who need a rope. Any of these chaps mention how to use spit to cure strokes, diabetes, etc.? Probably just as good as using quacks and their potions. When I was a nipper, we had to spit if we found a penny on the ground and couldn't step on the space between the cement pavement. "Step on a crack; break your mother's back."

I thought that the practice of 'exposure' was, originally, for the purpose of getting rid of malformed children rather than killing them. But, the story of Romulus and Remus flies in my face. As regards slavery and its economics, it has been shown, at least in America, that it was more expensive to feed, clothe and house slaves than to hire 'free' labor.

Of course one can argue from the particular to the general. It's called induction--without it, there would be no science. M. P. Cato: Are we arguing science here or politics?

The Pantheon still exists and there are temples around Naples that are mostly intact. Some may have originally been Greek, but the Romans used them. There is a church in Rome, San Clemente, which is situated on the foundation of a temple and still has some of the temple left. This can be seen easily. I am sure that this is the case throughout the empire and all can give clues as to the temples at Rome. I saw an altar to Mithras in an otherwise Roman god's temple. The altar was mostly complete. It may have been in San Clemente. Then there is the evidence of coins.