tflex

Well, you said you subscribed to the school of thought and interpretation portrayed by Cato. If I go back and look at Cato's posts, there is a good amount of hatred for the man that tends to cloud a clear judgement. If you check a few old threads, you will find that school of thought, does not recognize Caesar as even a 'good' military general. Anyways, reading your post above, I can already see a big difference between your school of thought and Cato's.

I'm sorry that your falling into the wrong school, the Dark ages school of pure hatred for Caesar. Caesar owned the late republic era, he left his mark all over it. "Caesar era", sounds pretty good to me.

I think this is a good morale boost for the coalition troops and the Iraqis. Thousand of lives were lost because of Zarqawi, and a lot of them were innocent civilians. Also, it should re-energize the intelligence community and the U.S. troops in Afghanistan in finding the big fish Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri; they are proving to be very elusive.

Officials: Al-Qaida in Iraq's al-Zarqawi killed Well, good riddance. I'm sure some other madman will replace him, but nonetheless it's a major blow to Al Qaida and the insurgency.

1815 is almost 2000 years after, do you realize how much the whole world had advanced by that time? In terms of military, science, transportation etc. For it's time the Roman empire accomplished the unthinkable, and I think you are well aware what they accomplished 2000 years ago. And Rome being far ahead in technology, shows that the Roman empire for it's time was more superior. Did Rome even know Australia, malasyia, New Zealand exist? I think not. China was way too far for them to even have solid communication with them. Did Rome even have the benefit of advanced navigation or gunpowder? Ofcourse not.

I have to disagree with that. For it's time 2000 years ago, the Roman Empire was way more advanced and militarily more powerful than any other civilization. Not to mention the Roman empire lasted longer than the British empire.

Matey, only the world cup matches count, the other ones are mere exhibition games that Argentina don't take too seriously, because unlike England, Argentina is more accustomed to playing at the highest stage, unfortunately the same cannot be said of England, unless you go back to 1966, thats a loooooong time ago. For example that 2005 game meant absolutely nothing, since both teams had already qualified for the world cup tournament, just a preperation game. Also you avoided my challenge, I reduced it to the quarterfinals, surely you think England will make it that far at least?

I think what I'm trying to say is, his actions are only a reaction to the chaos and theft that ensued in the past. Tomb robbers and vandalism were rampant before, and both Europeans and Egyptians contributed to this. I think he's still sore about that, and probably wants to show the Europeans in his own way, that he's in charge here, the treasures belong to Egypt, therefore, he requires them to do a little ass kissing before they are given permission to excavate. You know, kind of like your modern day politics. And, I think western archaelogists are finding it very hard to adjust to this new strict policy, when a few years back it was so easy to gain access to these sites, maybe too easy.

What I meant is many Egyptians sold these items in the black market to Europeans, so they should bare some responsibility too. Also I don't think there is anything wrong with the article that Virgil posted. It's their country, therefore, the authorities should be able to decide who excavates and who doesn't. Thats like in any other country, you need a permission or license. Hawass ended the days of free lancers plundering and vandalizing on their own without the watchful eye of the authorities. Again, I think the colonial powers did what came naturally to them, and there is nothing wrong with that, they won the war and took their prizes. Hawass is doing nothing wrong either by asking for the return of the items.

I lived in England for 6 years when I was a teenager, and witnessed first hand hooligans on many occasions when I use to attend Man. United games. Infact during a loss, while leaving the stadium, I recall a beer bottle flying over my head. I think hooligans add to an already electric atmosphere, it's exciting as long as that beer bottle doesn't hit it's inteneded target. I doubt that they will meet, but that last win by England was an isolated incident , usually the Argentinians have their way . Nevertheless, I hope they do play, it will be a great match. It's all or nothing, I will change my bet to the quarterfinals, I'm that confident.

For me the most exciting part of the game is the disorderly conduct (to put it mildly) of the fans. I also love watching a game decided on a penalty shootout, aaaahhhhh, the hearts that will be broken I think England doesn't have the goods this time around, infact I'm willing to bet USD$100, that England won't even get to the semi finals. Anybody brave enough to take me up on this bet? I think NOT Argentina will win it all, they have a great team.

I don't think there were any written laws at that time, but I'm sure foriegn powers stealing treasures would have been illegal, there just wasn't anything the Egyptians could do about it. Also, it should be noted that many Egyptians profited from the sale of such treasures. I don't object to Dr. Hawass's demands, whether I agree with his premise or not, he's doing what he's suppose to do, just like the colonial powers did what they had to do. His motives are no worse than the colonial powers at that time. If it works, then why not? If he has to villify the museums to justify his demands, then it's his right. The same way colonial powers plundered Egypt, it was their right, they were invaders and no one could oppose them, so they capitilized on the situation. I probably would have done the same thing if I was in their shoes, and would be doing the same thing if I was in Dr. Hawass's shoes. I guess it just depends on which side of the fence you are. But, I certainly don't think Hawass's demands are childish, immature, or stupid as some members have claimed.

No no, you got me wrong. I enjoy the humorous part, I got involved in that other thread too.

This could also be a myth, the one man part.

You know I had a feeling when I opened this thread, it might take the same turn the 'Apology of the Crusades' thread took. I agree that Dr. Hawass is overly aggressive in asking for all the artifacts to be returned, especially the ones taken legally. But, I think his main targets are treasures such as the Rosetta stone, Nefertiti's bust etc. These treasures are nationally symbolic and highly prized. I don't object to his methods, many artifacts have already been returned since he started his campaign, but the big targets will be much harder to get. Also, seeing as the Mubarak adminstration has pretty good relations with Europe and the U.S., I can envision a scenario playing out in the future, where the Egyptian government will use it's influence and encourage western governments to mediate and pressure museums to return such treasures. If such items were returned to the Egyptian government, it has much to gain, more popularity with Egyptians, more presitige, more publicity, more tourists, which means more money. So they definately have the motivation on a national level. P.S. Seeing that the relationship between the French government and the U.S. has dissintegrated the last few years, I think the U.S. should ship the Statue of Liberty to France.

Well, maybe then it should be returned to France, the Brits won't like that at all. Will they? They might even declare war on France , alright I'm exaggerating. To take (the item of another) without right or permission. I agree, that if it wasn't for the Europeans interest in ancient Egypt, much of these artficats would probably have been left to rot in the sun, or just sold in the black market by tomb robbers without a trace. But as far as Egypt in it's current state going the way of the Taliban, I highly doubt that; Egypt's economy relies heavily on tourism, and artifacts such as the Rosetta stone can only increase profits. Egypt like any other country in the Middle East has it's religious zealots, but it is by far one of the most secular countries in the Middle East, in terms of culture and politics. Your average Egyptian cherishes his glorious past, and Dr. Hawass has done a good job to nationalize excavations around the Pyramids, he's even advocated the death penalty for tomb robbers. He has to be credited with organizing the place and protecting it from all the looting and chaos that preceded it by Egyptians, Europeans etc. We're not talking about trade, but about theft. You can learn Egyptian history without stealing it. Just recently, there was a worldwide tour of Tutankhamun's tomb and other artifacts on display. The tomb was here in Los Angeles for almost 4 months. On the other hand, most Egyptians have never seen the Rosetta stone, or Neferititi's bust, and most of them can't afford to travel to Europe or the U.S. I can also tell you, that their definately will not be a tour to Egypt, simply because once the Rosetta stone lands in Egypt, it won't be coming back. Personally, I would prefer to see the artifacts in their natural setting, as long as they are well preserved. It's simply ridicolous to compare it to a child's plea, it's a nationalist reaction. C'mon Phil, if Egypt somehow got a hold of the British crown jewels, decided to display them in Cairo museum, and then refused to return them, how would you react? I think it's a bit insensitive to dismiss his plea as childish and immature. Again, Hawass backed by the Egyptian government, has done an excellent job in reducing and almost eliminating the illegal sale of artifacts, through stiff penalties. I agree that current governments and museums are not liable to what happened in the past, but they are responsible for their refusal to return stolen items in the present. As far as ownership, if there is no legal documents to prove their ownership, then obviously they were stolen, and their legal ownership is the place they were stolen from. Nobody wants to look at replicas, it's just not the same. People want to see the real thing, they want to view an item thats thousands of years old, that makes all the difference, not some replica. Thats your point of view, and an opposing point of view does not automatically qualify it as "short-sighted", "lacks depth", or "ill-thought-out arguments". I think PP put it best, "To the victor goes the spoils", I understand that argument better. It makes sense.

Check out this link Dr. Hawass Calls for Return of Stolen Artifact Dr. Hawass has been calling for all the stolen artifacts in European and American museums to be returned to Egypt. Stolen artifacts include the Rosetta stone in the British museum, the bust of Nefertiti in Berlin, the Dendera zodiac in the Louvre and the Ka-nefer-nefer mask in the St. Louis Art Museum etc. He is also asking for the return of artifacts that were legally taken out of Egypt sometime ago like the bust of the vizier Ankh-haf (2590

Don't scientists and archaelogists use carbon dating to determine how old something is? How the heck did they come out with the 12,000 year old theory? I mean if they're going to make something like that up, they should at least do it more professionally. Also, someone mentioned Al Jazzera was backing the story, in my book that automatically disqualifies the whole pyramid thing as pure propoganda and a sham. No disrespect to Al Jazeera, but I have to give credit where it's due, they are always so consistent and extraordinarly efficient in reporting lies... 100 metres high? are they mixing up the natural formation of a hill with a Pyramid? Maybe they also think UFOs built it. Not to mention, it rains in that region a lot more than your average place.

I think it's ironic, ever since the fall of communism, big government has been on the rise in the U.S. You would think we learnt something from big government power, secrecy, inefficiency and conspiracy; it can only comeback to bite us private citizens. This ruling sends a clear and loud message, that if you mess with the government, we'll come after you, so better to keep your mouth shut. These kind of laws are made in Russia, China or Cuba.

The exploding population continues to be encouraged through welfare programs, immigration and a global economy. If we take away welfare programs and severely tighten immigration, I truly think the population explosion will level off. A lot of people think thats inhumane, but I think it's being responsible.

I agree with Sun Yat Sen, he fits the criteria, I should have added him to the list, especially since he had a signficant role in the overthrow of the Qing dynasty and post-imperial China.

Great stuff.

I agree with whats been said, but Ursus, what you see on TV and hear on the news everyday doesn't show the whole picture. Yes, the extremists are getting more extreme, but the daily life of Arabs has significantly changed in the last 20 years or so; people in general have opened up to western culture. All you have to do is travel to Dubai, Lebanon, Kuwait, Qatar, even Saudi Arabia, there is an obvious change in people's mentality, whether it's in their professional life or personal, and society as whole has opened up. In Kuwait their will be women runnning for parliament for the first time ever, five women have been registered as candidates and the women population will be also exercising their voting right for the first time. This was unthinkable only 10 years ago, it's breaking a taboo. If you go to most countries in the gulf, you won't feel like you're in an Arab country in the traditional sense, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, other places Lebanon, Egypt, Morcco are all great examples.

Here's a different perspective on Globalism: I'm personally against globalism and it's effects on our world today. I am not an isolationist, but I'm against the loss of culture and loss of one's identity to a standarized system of living. I traveled all over the world back in the 80's and early 90's, and during this short period, the world simply doesn't look the same to me anymore; the only thing thats constant is change itself, but not at this speed. When I visit the same countries now, that I visited 15 or 20 years ago like Spain, Italy, France, Greece, the Middle East, Morocco, China, Thailand, I notice that their unique cultures are rapidly disappearing at an alarming rate, while being transformed into one standardized culture. This has been happening for a while since the invention of flight, television etc., but I think we are seeing the results now; the loss of historical languages unique to certain cultures being gobbled up by English, Spanish etc., the educational system is starting to look the same everywhere, most countries have scrapped their traditional form of government or political system, and have adopted a democratic system or are heading in that direction, capatilist economies and workers almost mimic eachother now, and even food is starting to taste the same, and so on... My first hand experiences: The food in my country doesn't have the same ethnic flavor that it use to. Most of the ingredients is now processed food, tomatoes taste of nothing, more like water, the spices are not as spicy, the traditional coffee has been replaced with Starbucks, and our local dessert has now been replaced with chocolate. We use to grow our own fruit, vegetables, and have our own beef & pork, but now we import most of our foods from Europe. It just doesn't taste the same. In Spain, there was a time when relaxation, social life and generally taking things easy were embraced. I still remember when I was in southern Spain in the early 90's, all the restaurants, shops, offices use to close between 1:30pm - 5:00pm for a good old Siesta. Two years ago, I was their again and was surprised to see that all the same shops, restaurants, offices remained open the whole day. The people were not as warm and friendly as they use to be, I guess it must be from the stress of your typical workday and less social and free time. I visited Dubai in 2003 and was amazed to find that going out to nightclubs on weekends was apparently the coolest and most exciting thing to do now. Hell, only a few years before nightclubs were non-existant in UAE. Now, dancing the whole night on techno and picking up chicks is the latest craze. The tradition use to be families and friends would gather, slaughter a lamb and just eat and socialize the whole night, talking politics, religion, history etc. Also, the men use to go out into the desert and hunt hares. This is very recent, only 15 years ago that was thing to do. Egypt use to be the capital of music in the Middle East and known well for their use of diverse instruments, colorful sound, and unique structure. All those unique instruments have now disappeared and mostly replaced by a standard guitar, violin, drums etc. When I was a kid I spent most of my time with friends in the outdoors playing soccer, climbing trees and just being mischievous. Now many of the kids in my country don't enjoy going out as much and being physically active, they would rather play a computer game or chat with their friends online. There was a time when speed limits on highways were non-existant in most non-western countries and some western countries. It was always so liberating to travel outside of England or the U.S. (where I've lived my last 16 years), and feed my need for speed. I use to race with a good friend of mine in northern Italy sometime in the early 90's. I went back there in 2002 to see my friend, and to my disappointment, there were speed limits everywhere and speed cameras. People still drive crazy there though, but it's changing, I guess it's safer this way. The Autobahn in Germany was known as the best place in the world for fast drivers, unfortunately Germany has also added speed limits in a lot of places. NO speed limits are now only assigned to the German countryside, I'm sure that will change too. There are so many other examples that I can give, but it would take me the whole night. The point I'm trying to make is that the world is losing it's diversity, everybody is copying everybody. The experience of the 'unknown' is disappearing, and I truly believe globalism will eventually affect and influence every single aspect of our lives. I guess after thousands of years of experimentation, mankind has finally decided this is the best way to live? I disagree... tflex

I already opened a thread Greatest Minds a while back on the most influential 'minds', such as Scientists, Philosphers etc. that shaped our world, check the link. This time I wanted to narrow it down to the criteria in the orginal post; I wanted to stick with powerful leaders of powerful civilizations. I agree about Genghis Khan opening trade routes east to west on a large scale, was highly influential on Europe's renaissance period. The same goes for Alexander the Great almost a thousand years before, opening trade routes from west to east on an unprecedented scale, which also had enormous influence on Rome. Without these two men, we might be 200 or 500 years behind in terms of east and west relations. I voted for Augustus in the poll, but I changed my mind now, I think Constantine's influence had a bigger impact in shaping our world and more long lasting. Christianity probably would never have spread the way it did if it wasn't for Constantine. If I had to do it over again, I would vote for him. Hitler's influence also had a huge impact on our world today, much of Europe's politics has changed because of Hitler, and the state of Israel would not even exist if it wasn't for Hitler. Thats a lot of influence for one man.