tflex

They are there to preach god's word for those who will accept it.

No, you need to get struck by the lightning first before the evil omen can depart.

You could have been a pious pastor my dear Gaius, if only someone had plucked your evilness away.

It seems as though every 15 years or so, a war breaks out in my country of origin, Lebanon. Yes, I was there taking my summer vacation on July 12, when all of a sudden everything reverted back to the chaos and the mindset of the 15 year civil war that devestated my country, and cost 150 thousand lives out of an average of 3.5 million people during the war years. Reflecting back on the 18 days I spent there this sizzling July, I find it amazing how the human mind works. It's sort of like the terror alert system, you can switch it to adapt to a summer vacation of lazing around on the beach & drinking vodka on the rocks, and in literally a fraction of a second it switches into survival mode when there is a threat, like it would if suddenly you were getting chased by a hungry lion. For me it was like a flashback of the 80s; when the first bomb exploded in the distance that late July afternoon, immediately, my first instinct was to run for the mountains which are about half of a mile away from the coast, where I was sitting with my cousin. And once I would get there, I would take my position next to the artillery operated by my old friend, and cling onto that Kalashnikov like it was my highschool girlfriend; only there was no Kalashnikov, no mountain barracks, and my old friend living in sunny Australia thousands of miles away; yes, it finally hit me, the Phalangist or Christian resistance was dead in Lebanon! Now, 'we' the former warriors of mount Lebanon, the guardians of the cedars are nothing but spectators to a war between one of our former enemies Hizbullah, and our former ally Israel. Thats when I realized the only place I could run to was the shelter. I finally had to accept that the anceint people of Lebanon have been defeated by the foreigners residing in our land, and forced to emigrate by the thousands a country that has a new Islamic makeover and identity. Sadly, the demographics back this up, we went from a majority, to 50%, and now 38% of the population. We no longer have a source of arms, no real politcal support domestically or internationally, and our potential fighting men (18-40) leave everyday for greener pastures, I'm one of them, for I know it's a lost cause. If Israel is on the front lines of the war on Islamic fundamentalism, then we were behind the lines resisting everyday until the last bullet, which we eventually ran out of after 15 years of fighting our hearts out, unfortunately, the odds were stacked up against us. Personally, I was only actively involved in the latter years of that war, and also the most devestating years as a young teenager, and I haven't fired in anger on an enemy since then. But, on that late July afternoon 2006, I felt that unmistakable sensation again, that patriotic spirit, and was ready to throw away the life that I have built since, and dive straight back into the war zone, if only I could get hold of an AK-47. It is a terrible feeling that I wish on no one, to witness first hand the loss of one's country. tflex

Ooops forgive me, I meant Revelation 7. While your at it read all of Revelations, and understand the seals.

It's very simple, the Elect are not predestined, and same goes for the non-Elect. It's mentioned in the bible that even the Kenites can convert to the Elect if they follow God's word. There is one particular example that comes to mind of a Kenite woman in Tyre, but I can't remember exactly which book it was in to quote it. Verily Verily I say unto thee keep the questions coming, and I'll convert you Kenite, wake up dear Gaius

Do you consider Isiah, Job, Matthew, Mark, Acts, Thessalonians from Revelation? Why would I forget the false Messiah when he's associated with the tribulation. Take chapter 17 alone, why would Jesus give the examples of Noah and Lot, if he's talking exclusively of his second coming without the preceding events that occur. Remember who Jesus was answering before turning to the disciples in Chap 17, What do you think these verses mean? "20-Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21-nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." 22-Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23-Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24-For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25-But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation." Luke 17 He's obviously talking about the fake Messiah, and he continues until the end of the Chapter. I have a Greek dictionary right next to me, plus a Hebrew and Chaldee dictionary. Thus the lord thy god commandeth you to sleep and dream of the real Messiah, not the fake one, or ye shall be taken away to the vultures and torn into pieces, ofcourse figuratively speaking . I advise the same of Gaius Octavius, for ye is the sinful kind, and should follow Moonlapse's dream.

How am I out of context, when the second coming will not happen until the tribulation passes, there's a direct connection. The second coming and tribulation are discussed in many books preceding Revelation, I gave one example in Matthew. And why will the saved be wherever the body is with the eagles gathered around it.

I guess I will let my previous posts speak for themselves too, I just don't see how anyone can logically interpret Luke 17 with the pre-tribulation rapture theory, based on the information I already mentioned in my previous posts, and it's all in the bible. I will let the scriptures speak for themselves, the bible and that chapter is there for all to see.

How does this obviously refer to the sixth trump when when Jesus, who refers to himself as the 'Son of man' says that this will occur when he, not the false messiah, is revealed? Wouldn't the revealing of the 'Son of man' and the comming of the kingdom of God be the seventh trump? How can you possibly arrive at that conclusion after reading Luke 17, it supports what I'm saying. First, Jesus was addressing a hostile crowd that asked him a question, then he turned to his disciples, and I think we both agree that he was talking about the second coming of the Messiah, but then he goes on to mention the negative events that are associated with that coming, and gives similar examples of Noah and Lot in the verses above. Read the entire chapter from start to finish, it's very clear if you approach it from a neutral standpoint. I think you took that passage out of context, even though it stands on it's own for someone who is familiar with the bible text. I recommend that you read the entire chapter or better the entire bible, that is if you have time, or if you want to, I admit it's time consuming, but maybe you've already read the whole thing. You can't just take a few verses out of a book, and make your conclusion, especially if you're not familiar with the book, this rule applies to any book, article etc. And the other information I "stitched" together, is relevant to the discussion, certainly the tribulation cycle, since thats what we are debating. The Matthew verses that I recommended are not necessary to back Luke 17, but it's definately helpful to hear the same subject discussed from another book. Gaius Octavius, elect means the chosen. It's used many times in the bible.

The point of my post was to draw a line between what a person or an organization says, from what the scripture says. The pre-tribulation rapture theory is non-existant in the bible, and the Luke passage in question cannot be interpreted according to that theory, if the entire bible is read without external influences, such as denominations. It's mentioned several times in Revelation and other books, that the second coming of the real Messiah will occur during the 7th trump, only after the 6th trump has taken place. In Luke 17, it's more than obvious Jesus is talking about the 6th trump when he says "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Luke Therefore, if someone interprets it any other way, it would be based on their own beliefs outside the scripture, or just ignorance of the tribulation process. I also think the scripture is more cut and dried than so-called bible scholars or ministers. Gaius Octavius, I didn't understand your question exactly, if you can clarify please.

"Apostasy means giving up or renouncing of one's professed principles, or faith. This will come to pass when the religious lamb (false messiah) of Revelation 13:11 comes to pass. He will look like the Lamb of God, but his voice is of the dragon, for he is the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan (Revelation 12:9). When the false christ stands in the holy place performing in the sight of Christians, the pretribulation-rapture-Christian shall think it is Christ coming to rapture them away. It is the duty of the elect to stand and witness in the synagogues, allowing the Holy Spirit to give His Message to the world through you. (Mark 13:9)." Sheperds Chapel "Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the belief that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation, often attribute that doctrine to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret MacDonald (a follower of Edward Irving) who had a vision in 1830." wiki "Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition." 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Luke 17:31-37 Also, check Matthew 24:23-31 When you read this, it is obvious the ones taken are the ones deceived by the false Messiah, not the ones saved. Verse 37, the translation for "body" is carcass, and for "eagles" is vultures. This figurative speech is very clear in Luke & Matthew, where the ones taken will be going. If you read all of chapter 17, it will be clear that the deceived are taken before the 7th trump, when the real Messiah arrives. The same question was asked and answered in Matthew 24:23-31, it's a good idea to read the whole chapter to get the context. It's also important to be mindful, that the coming of the real Messiah cannot happen before the 6th trump has already taken place, when the deceived will commit the unforgivable sin of accepting the fake Messiah. The point I'm trying to make is, if you get your information from so-called priests, scholars, authors, and denominations you are bound to be mislead; a good "pastor/priest/minister", will always point to the scriptures to backup his words.

Nope, it's not in Revelations. Precisely why you should never trust women

Just wanted to point out, that the "rapture" theory is not even in the bible.

The media is all Liberal, except for Fox news. The NY Times committed treason. Thats what I meant when I said friends of criminals; terrorists must love Liberals because they constantly undermine security. Liberals are open minded until they find somebody who disagrees with them and critisizes their Disney policies, then they start insulting the opposition.

I gather you're in a corner, and you need to make dumb comments like that to make it easier for yourself. Please take your pills later, now back to topic. Pure Liberal propoganda. No, they don't have time to listen to lovers smooth talking on the phone. If it hadn't occured to you liberals, there are people out there that want to kill you, and they happen to be terrorists.

They do have that intelligence in Cheyney and Rummie. I was talking about 'intelligence' as in spies.

As far as terrorist activity in the U.S., well the last time was on 9/11, thats almost 5 years ago. Don't you think the terrorists would have liked to follow up during those 5 years. The war on terror is succeeding, and proof of that is that terrorists have not been able to pull off anything on American soil since 9/11. This success is directly related to Bush's preemptive policy, and taking the war on their turf. I didn't compare him, the topic starter did that. Ofcourse Bush is not a good politician, he can't even talk properly, but he's surrounded by hawks, and he's a straightforward thinking guy.

Alright, you Bush bashing outlaws. First, you need to mention the Boston Globe is a newspaper for hippies, read only by far left liberals. Second, Augustus was probably the best Roman emperor, well known for his effective reforms, so you are actually complementing Bush and his reform agenda, and I thank you for that. Third, in wartime and especially since we're fighting a hidden enemy that abides by no rules, it is the presidents responsibility to take drastic actions and protect U.S. citizens in their country. The war on terror will be won through intelligence and a preemptive policy, secrecy is your best asset. I would much rather have a republican in office, than have a Liberal freak that prefers to negotaite and smooth talk with terrorist thugs.

PP, I'm glad you're adopting the principate thing, I always new you'de come around . Maybe Cato will now follow in your footsteps.

$$$ do matter in terms of organizing and training the best possible team, as well as attracting young talent. If you look at those African teams that are booming with talent, they simply don't have the organization, training, discpline and facilities of the European and South American teams. That does matter when you're playing on the international level.

Well, in 2002 they reached the semifinal and almost pulled out a victory against Germany. If you have the money and the organization it can be done.

The U.S. have to go after Klinsmann for coach. The Germans seem to want him back, but if the U.S. is serious about winning a world cup they have to pull them dollars out of their fat pockets and get a decent coach that can change the whole complexion of the team, and motivate the young players.

Kosmo, I see you have a troubled mind, so I thank you for that post, all of a sudden I don't feel so lonely anymore, it's good to have company when you're down. I will concentrate on getting a tan before I do the painting part in two years, and the ponytail thing was not my idea, it came from the creative head of Gaius Octavius. I honestly don't know how to answer the rest of your questions, I'm just as confused as you are.