Ursus

The fact that is was a gradual process, extended usually over the objections of diehard conservatives, does not invalidate the fact that it did happen, and few other imperialist powers if any displayed like inclusiveness.

I think we need to have an in-depth study on Caesar's baldness. To what extent was Caesar's quest for glory motivated by his desire to compensate for a shortage of follicles? If Caesar had hair, would the Republic not have fallen?

I agree imperialism is the normal course of affairs in the anarchic international system. I disagree there is nothing unique about the Roman version. Going back to my previous post, Rome's cultural values of superiority rather obliged them to "civilize" their neighbors. Furthemore, the inclusiveness of Rome's subjects into the imperium once civilized, whether as allies, clients or citizens, is something largely unique in the affairs of international history.

Most attempts to recreate Rome have been cheap knock offs. Everything from Czarist Russia to the Holy Roman Empire to the Third Reich. Feh.

Interesting review. I never actually read this book. I guess this is one for the Amazon wish list ...

I have read the book but will defer to P. Clodius or anyone else in making a full review. I don't feel sufficiently motivated to write several paragraphs on it. I will only offer a "pocket review" as Pertinax would say. Informative. Much information. Views the many shades of Augustus, including his relations with his two key advisors, his family members, and the other key players of the Late Republic. Whether or not there is new info here depends on how much you have read about Augustus. If you know little, you will certainly be educated. The prose is delightful. Intelligent but not complicated. The author makes a few interesting points, take them for what they are worth to you: Augustus seemed a coward on the battlefield, but risked his life to face angry mobs. Augustus conceived of courage as an individual act to confront those defying his will, not a team effort in a military context. The choice between Augustus and Antony was a choice between a prudish but efficient monarchy, and a more laid back but less well organized monarchy, respectively. We can be thankful Augustus won because Antony's regime would presumably not have had the lasting impact on Western Civilization. Augustus was a deliberate, long range thinker, but not quite blessed with extraordinary visions. Many mistakes were made and much luck was needed. Plans were conducted often on an ad hoc basis. The book has a central flaw, and this is what averted me from reviewing it. The introduction gives us a fanciful tale of how Livia poisoned Augustus, with his consent, to make way for Tiberius. One expects the rest of the book to help prove this thesis. It doesn't. The book showcases the characters of both Augustus and Livia, and while it would not be out of character for either of them, the opening hypothesis is left unproven. The author himself admits the real truth can never be known. So why include it anyway? I guess to hook the reader into buying the book, thinking there will be something novel here. There isn't though. All in all, a decent enough read, but perhaps not worth the hype.

Excerpt: ... as a Culturalist I can understand the mentality to some degree. It is ideas like this that lend creedence to Huntingdon's thesis that nation-states will decline and the world will be more mobilized around broader civilizational groupings. Good luck. I however will not be moving to a Neo-Byzantium. I'd have problems following the State religion.

I must have missed this post when you fist made it in January. You know what, I'm going to pin this sucker for the useful links.

In some of the alternative religious circles to which I have been exposed, there are an amazing amount of people who believe the world was once ruled by ancient pacifist eco-matriarchies. The world was a golden age, with people frolicking happily naked through the woods and living in harmony with nature. Then the evil Christians arrived to bring war, patriarchy, and ecological destruction. Atlantis sank in disgust, and Mother Earth wept. To reset the balance, we need to rediscover the secret lore of ancient "withcraft" lost from the Stone Age and empower women to fight the evils of the world (and George Bush is usually the center of all Evil). These people are nearly always on the far-left fringes of political activist groups. Environmentalism, feminism and pacifism merge into a whole, backed by a fabricated religion that was based on some really bad scholarship of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Despite their claims of being pagan, most know nothing of ancient, historical paganism. Their religion is a pseudo-historical fraud which serves as a mask for counter-culture protest mentality. They are merely the flip side of their own mortal enemies, the so-called Religious Right. These pseudo-historical groups are nearly always fronts for radical socio-political agendas. Afrocentrists. Aryan Christians. The list goes on. They should be challenged at every turn. Because it's not just the academic veracity of history at stake - it's about maintaining our liberties and dignity from subversive political groups.

The educated Christians I have met from the High Churches all seem more or less aware of how early Christianity was immersed in the language of Greco-Roman philosophy, especially Platonism and Stoicism. What interests me about the current Pope is that he is an extremely well educated, thoughtful individual who explicitly grounds the Christian experience in the traditions of Rome and Byzantium. Like his politics or not, he is a Traditionalist with keen historical understandings. Now I live in a rather rural area. Some of the less educated Protestant cults around here probably haven

The cultural values of Rome demanded it on some level. Virtus was moral and physical excellence, best expressed by courage in a military situation. Dignitas was one's good good social standing among one's peers, gained in no small part from virtus. Auctoritas , and even more powerful concept, understood as the supreme social standing of someone with many clients. On a micro level we see the various aristocrats asserting their supremacy through military campaigns, gaining social capital back in Rome among their clients and peers. On a macro level we see Roman culture as a whole asserting its "right" to rule and civilize its neighbors. Let me share a quote from a modern thinker on the subject, apropos to Rome's cultural values inciting imperialism. -- Paul Valery

As corny as it sounds, I am thankful for UNRV. This site helps keep me grounded. In real life I have not met many people who share my intellectual interests. When I came here I was pleased to find fellow Romanophiles and lovers of history. I even met a pagan or three (fancy that). I usually check in after a not-always-pleasant day at work and enjoy the solace that derives from the presence of equals. When I first came I immediately felt a respect for our mature and knowledgeable triad of administrators, as well as some of the other core members at the time (who are now all Patricians). It is remarkable to see how the site has grown since the summer of 2004 and attracted many great individuals, even a few scholars among them. To the Triumviri: thanks for being one of the net

In some parts of what is charmingly known as the "Bible Belt" there are people who would set up a Protestant Theocracy if they could.

And really, what's the point? American school kids can't vote, can't fight in wars, and aren't fully employed tax payers. Of what real worth is any sort of oath of loyalty from them? When someone turns 18, before they pass into full citizenship, perhaps they should swear a formal oath to the Constitution and the rule of law. But let that oath be void of any mention of deity. If private religious groups and private religious schools want their children to swear an oath by their deity of choice, that's entirely up to them.

.... when he was actually in the mood to administrate and general ...

Think Alabama with a cooler climate.

The book asserts Augustus gave some unspoken signal to Livia that he wanted to die to allow a smooth transition for Tiberius. Thus, she poisoned him with figs when he was already recovering from an illness.

I might be going insane, but I'm starting to find you amusing.

Only if its a duly certified Roman themed event, like a reenactment. Otherwise, I want to be able to walk into a bar and grill without people thinking I am already drunk....

I'm only a third of the way through, so I can't make that determination yet. If Pretty Boy Clodius doesn't beat me to the punch, I intend to do a full review when I am finished. The introduction, however, asserts that Augustus was most likely poisoned by his family, with his consent, so that Tiberius could finally take over quickly, thus forestalling civil war. I'm guessing the rest of the book tries to prove that conclusion.

Usually I agree with Augusta, but here I don't. I have no respect for depressed, ethereal shadows who try to evade the mantle of leadership. The Empire would have been a better place if Sejanus had taken over. Now Vespasian, on the other hand, I can salute. Pecunia non olet!

I believe the Romans (aside from diehard conservatives) admired the Greeks of the classical era. They could appreciate the warrior arete found therein, and Sparta was a favorite tourist destination for Romans in Greece. The Roman literati modeled their works after Homer and the great tragedy writers. Greek myths and cults began influencing Roman religion since the beginning. The Hellenistic era, with its softer Oriental side, was a phase of Greek culture more ambivalent in the minds of Romans. Hellenistic philosophies like Stoicism became popular with the Roman elite, but it was purely the ethical side that concerned the Romans, and they were adapted by Roman thinkers to the Roman mentality. The Hellenistic religious cults began penetrating Rome since the mid-Republic - but the establishment frowned heavily on these, and it wasn't until about the mid Principate that the state made peace with them all (with the exception of Christianity, of course).

Watch the locals get drunk and still revel in their Superbowl win. Be on the lookout for Roman themed events - reenactments, etc. They are usually held in suburbs of big cities. I will see if there are any summer events in Pennsylvania that would suit our purposes.

Finally found some time to start reading. Not bad so far. Simple but effective prose. Augustus' genius as well as his faults are on striking display.