Ursus

Can anyone actually recommend me some good textbooks for self-study in either Latin or Greek? I've tried using "Wheelock's Latin" but not very successfully.

If I had "billions" I'd actually live somewhere along the Mediterranean. I could probably live in England too, since I like the culture and speak the language. But I'd have to use my billions to hire an Italian chef, since the cooking there doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not a reenactor myself, but from hanging around Romanophiles I'll think you'll find people of all faiths. Christians of various persuasions. Jews. Agnostics. There is even a small but growing movement of people who would call themselves Roman pagans. While they are very small relative to the normal population, you'll find that Romanophile forums usually have a few of them. Various religions can all place some kind of claim to the Roman legacy, and we all really should respect that. Pagans and Christians and Agnostics can all find something in Rome. If you're interested in the connection between Christianity and Rome, maybe you should look into Byzantine groups? There are a few of them around.

In the realm of real world politics, not really. In the cloistered realm of professional "intellectuals" I think you'll still find some sympathizers. Communism was a product of the Industrial Age. Since we're in the Post-Industrial World, it's lost much of its relevance. The emphasis has shifted from economics to culture. One could make the case that postmodern deconstructionism is Communism's step child, reared for the post-industrial age. And that particular strain of thought is quite prevalent. But that's probably a separate topic in itself.

I'm trying to compile a list of resources to present to aspiring Romanophiles. Please list a few of your favorite books in any of the following areas: - History and Politics - Military and Warfare - Culture, Literature, Art & Architecture - Religion/Mythology & Philosophy - Latin (teaching texts or books in Latin) - Daily Life - Biographies of famous personas - Miscellaneous The books you list should not assume more than a basic university education, and they should not be especially hard to find sources. Also, if you know of a good DVD or video cassette recording with an educational Roman theme, please mention it. Thank you.

Yes, I meant that some Celtic and Germanic pagans didn't like Rome all that much due to invasions or attempted invasions. I realize pagan politics is not something that arouses great interest from the majority of people here, but I thought it was directly relevant to the general topic of Rome and its detractors, so that's why I mentioned it. As far as religious tolerance, the Romans believed that every deity they encountered had to be respected, or divine retribution would fall upon them. In that sense, they were a very pious people both to their own gods and the gods of their neighbors. But if a religious cult did something to upset the social order, or somehow presented a threat to Roman rule, they rarely hesitated to restrict the activities of that cult. Religious tolerance ended where a threat to the Roman social order began.

I tend to think in terms of culture and religion, and to me cultures and religion are two sides of the same coin. So with that in mind, I look at the world through those lenses. I'm something of a pagan, and I deal with pagans from other cultures all the time. Many of them don't seem overly fond of Rome. Especially the ones of a Germanic or Celtic persuausion. A lot of these people belong to some clan or "tribe" and have an insular view of the world; the more cosmopolitan and rational atmosphere is something of a threat to them I guess. Then there are Jews and Christians who may have their own reasons for disliking Rome. The more educated Christians may see Christianity as a product of Greco-Roman culture, but the lesser educated ones take the "Romans murdered Jesus" viewpoint. Some Jewish people still seem sore regarding that whole destruction of the temple affair. They seem to forget that rulers like Julius Caesar treated them with kindness until they had a good reason not to. All of the above mentioned groups may see Rome as "evil" for whatever reason. I merely shrug it off. I have little sympathy for their arguments. Honestly I think the Greco-Roman legacy is the most significant force in the West, and perhaps the world. I certainly think it edges out all other cultural influences from the West. In time perhaps the cultures centering around Confucius and Mohammed might exert more influence on world history, but that is for the future to decide. As of now, I think it's hard to escape the Greco-Roman legacy no matter where you live.

Thanks, I'm honored. I've recently discovered the joys of amazon.com and will be ordering books by the score over the next few months. I'll write some reviews on the more important ones. Some of the books are on Roman paganism though, and I'm not sure how much interest that topic carries around here...

Yes, but they might be obsolete in a generation. Sattelite guided rockets can make swiss cheese of large aircraft carriers. If the US Navy doesn't find some defense against it, it will have to rethink its entire carrier based strategy.

I'm not a Christian, so Christian arguments against Rome mean little to me. Since Christianity owes much to Greco-Roman civilization, I don't see how any educated Christian can not see the the Roman Empire as part of Christianity's legacy -- the murder of this alleged god-man Jesus notwithstanding. Rome has had an unfair reputation for years as an Evil Empire. The truth is Rome was far more civilized and tolerant than most of the Empires that came before or after. As far as influence on the Western world, let's see ... * I'm using Caesar's calendar (more or less). * I'm writing in the Roman alphabet (more or less) * Most of the intellectual and artistic words in English come from Greek or Latin * My country (America) took some of it's inspiration for government from the Roman Republic * Most of the arts and sciences familiar to Westerners had their origins in the Hellenized realms of the Roman Empire. Looks like I'm largely Greco-Roman. There is some Germanic influence in laguage and law, thanks to the legacy of Angleland (England). But otherwise I account myself a good Roman citizen.

Rubicon, The Last Years of the Roman Republic Tom Holland. Double Day Books. U.S. $27. 50 408 pages <I>Rubicon</I> surveys the dying decades of the Roman Republic, from the great civil war with Rome

Well, the US having a highly decentralized education system, I suppose there will be dramatic differences from region to region. But I don't know of any public schools in a considerable radius that teach Latin or Greek. Spanish is the language of choice, sometimes French. Once in a great while, German.

I would have loved to have "suffered" through Latin and Greek, but it wasn't part of my education. I think in the US, that is increasingly a rarer course of study - except maybe for religious schools or upper class schools.

The stiff arm salute is supposedly Roman in origin. Mussilini resurrected it for his facist mobs, and Hitler borrowed it from him - equating the salute with Nazism in contemporary times. Yet it is said the salute was the civic salute of the Roman republic. American school children before the 1930's were once taught to salute the flag in the Roman manner. An old picture shows American citizens rendering the Roman salute to a newly elected Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Is there any primary evidence for the Roman salute? Any first hand drawings or sculptures depicting the salute? And descriptions of it in the literature? Or is just something that was remembered, or perhaps invented, by folk legend?

<i>I admit to not being an expert on modern Italy, but I wonder what it is that has prevented them from moving from the "almost" category to the top of the list?</i> Mafia leeches? Just kidding. Well, maybe not completely. With the discovery of the New World, the fortunes of Western Europe lay with those countries that had better access to the Atlantic. At first Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands, and then later France and especially England. Italy, being stuck in the Mediterranean, didn't stand a chance. Also, I believe the rise of hostile Islamic powers in the Mid east and North Africa seriously put a cramp on Italy's formerly profitable trade with the Far East. Then too was the cultural climate. Protestant countries were generally more tolerant and innovative, and it was in the Netherlands and later England where capitalism, industrialism, and scientific progress really started off. I think all those things put Italy at a serious disadvantage for centuries. But they've obviously caught up considerably. These days it's better to look at Western Europe as a whole rather than as separate economies. The European Union does have a GDP larger than America.

I tend to be moderate. I basically believe in international free markets, but I do believe in some government programs to cushion and stabilize the hectic world of laissez faire capitalism. People usually champion either communism or capitalism as a moral ideal; to me economics is matter of what works. I think some mix of private and public activity is the most effective system. The only thing most serious economists argue over is the exact ratio of the mixtures.

Non fiction. But it's written so well it reads like a novel rather than a historical meditation. The historical figures come to life. The author has a cynical sense of humor I can largely appreciate.

Just a couple of thoughts here. I. The public cult of the Olympians had already fallen into disrepair by the time Christianity had ascended. The one notable exception may have been Mars, whom the soldiers honored alongside Mithras. But Greek philosophy, which was either hostile or condescending to traditional religion, had captured the imagination of the upper classes. The lower classes increasingly came to prefer Oriental cults with their orgiastic rites and promises of afterlife salvation. Christianity's main rivals were not the cults of the Olympians, but the cult of Mithras as well as Greek philosophy. Christianity seems to have borrowed from both Mithras and the Greek philosophers, making it more amendable to potential converts. It must be noted though, that if the public cult of the Roman gods had been pushed to the background, the private cult of the family endured. The worship of Roman households for their family gods and ancestors endured with few changes throughout all stages of Roman history, and was ended only when the Christian church promised the death penalty for it. II. Did Christianity help end the empire? Niccolo Machiavelli, an ardent admirer of the Roman Republic, seemed to think so when he wrote his <i>Discourses of Livy</i>. According to him Christianity's emphasis on peace, coupled with its scorn for worldly affairs, sapped the old martial spirit of Rome and made them less effective soldiers. If we look at the utter savagery with which Christians have fought other faiths and even between themselves, I think the theory that Christians aren't ruthless soldiers goes right out the window. The theory that Romans abandoning their native gods led to confusion and demoralization doesn't hold up either. The Dii Consentes - the 12 gods said to be equivalent of the Olympians - were not always the staple of Roman religion. That was largely a product of Greek influence. At the founding of Rome, most of the gods were local Italic deities most modern people have never heard of. Eventually all of them except Jupiter and Mars were pushed aside in favor of the more Greek like deities. This gradual upheaval in religion occurred simultaneously with Rome's amazing expansion.

I am currently reading Rubicon by Tom Holland, regarding the fall of the Republic from the Social War to the founding of the Principate. Anyone else read it? It has been quite good so far. I like the author's writing style.

Sulla and Caesar both claimed Venus as a patron (In Caesar's case, as an ancestor). Both men were infamous for their sexual proclivities. Venus, as Venus Felix, was thought a giver of good fortune to her favorites.

Well, I'll just re-post a brief summary I made in another forum. Introduction

Hiya, Zeke. I've been involved in Roman and Hellenic Reconstructionism for a while ... I'm more Roman than Hellenic, I guess. Nova Roma is one organization, although they seem to concentrate more on petty infighting than anything else. Another organization I highly recommend is www.societasviaromana.org, specifically the religious college. Also, Zeke, Reconstructionists of various cultures hang out at the Axe and Oak. http://excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=337 Please join us there. It's lonely in the Roman section. Most Reconstructionists these days seem to be Celtic.

I'll go with Athens due to its cultural achievements. Sparta's military excellence is blunted by the fact they always seemed to find an excuse not to fight. Now if the Athenian Empire had not collapsed after the Peloponnesian war, there might have been a Hellenistic world without Alexander at the helm.

Thanks for the Welcome. :-) Mars is certainly the most Roman of the gods, in my opinion. The Intellectual and artistic side of me prefers Minerva, though. And Mercury is a god with many useful provinces....

Who is your favroite deity from the Roman pantheon, and why?